Old Fat guys and their Heavy Guns - StaT Man Chubby Shooter Formula included!

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by BRAD DYSINGER, Sep 22, 2020.

  1. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I looked at the scores from last weeks Buckeye shoot at the Cardinal Center and it reinforced what I've always known about shooting windy, or strong, targets. Big heavy unsingles are no good in the wind and for the most part neither are old men.

    I quit serious ATA competition when I turned 50. I knew then as I know today that the 50 year old me had no chance against the 35 or 40 year old me. When I was younger I was just better, better eye sight, better physical shape, better mentally. I WANTED to win.

    Today I know more about how to break targets than I did at 40, but that is not enough, I know there is no way that I should hope to compete with Joe Charnigo or all those other young shooters that kicked ass at the Ohio State, Grand American, and Cardinal Classic shoots this year..

    The reason the ATA has dumbed down the sport is so old fat shooters that own $20,000. trap guns can justify it and feel like they can compete but when you get a little wind being old and shooting a fence post equals bad scores. In the wind you need a lighter faster gun and one with a sighting plain closer to your eye, Top Single, Auto Loader, BT 99 type gun.

    Joe is a great pigeon shooter and I think the best ATA trap shooter today definitely the best money shooter. He would have fit right in with Leo, Dan, Phil, Ray, Britt, Gene, Frank, and all the other money shooters that I shot against back in the day.. He's a money shooter and doesn't worry about the score, just winning. Old men complain about this and that but the truth is it's the date on the birth certificate that is the real problem.

    If you look at the winners at this seasons big events the old guard is going and the new SCTP trained boys and girls have become men, (and women like Summer,) and are taking over. If all those young kids that were there in the summer would have been at last weeks Cardinal shoot the winning scores would have been higher there too.

    Instead of complaining about shooting poorly just enjoy all these young shooters coming along, and maybe shoot a little lighter gun. Money has never been the deciding factor in a trap shooting winner. You can't buy success.
     
  2. Mike Battista

    Mike Battista Well-Known Member V I P

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    English 101 It should be their and not there in the heading
     
  3. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    If i'd have caught it before I posted it I'd have changed it but just like a wind blown straightaway that is shot beside it is gone, lost, and forgotten. THEIR I fixed it.
     
  4. ljutic329

    ljutic329 Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Who care's
     
  5. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Thanks for the constructive criticism. Geeeezzzz

    I fixed it. Used that lame FTF rule and used a “do over”
     
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  6. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Brad , I resemble that remark.
     
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  7. Shamus

    Shamus Active Member

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    A lot of shooters resemble that remark. Just look at some of the pictures of the Buckeye.
     
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  8. Dustin Sacksteder

    Dustin Sacksteder Active Member

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    I would have figured that fat guys with heavy guns would be the last thing to sway on a breezy day
     
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  9. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I think us old fat guys should get our lighter & faster Model 12’s out of the safe and just have fun! I’m not sure why Brad has such animosity for those that buy expensive guns, but the rest of his comments are pretty much spot on. It makes me happy to see the younger generations stepping up and taking over the sport. The OSTA has a 22 year old multi-time All American on the Board of Directors now. My time, our time, has passed but I want the sport to continue and these young guns just might get done what we could not.
     
  10. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Don when you were Tournament Director for the OSTA how many kids with Bt 99's bitched to you about something, compared to some old guy with a K-80 who was shooting it just because he could afford too which made him an expert about everything trap shooting even when he didn't know anymore than that SCTP Kid?

    I've spent 2 thirds of my life around all those self proclaimed experts that do nothing for trap shooting but stand on the sidelines and bitch. They are the occupy the 27 crowd, the anti money shooters, the ribbon shooters, the if I don't get the targets set my way I won't be back crowd.

    They are everything that a skeet shooter was when I started shooting trap and are very responsible for the state of the ATA today. I don't like them. So THERE I've answered your question for you, Id rather shoot Cloverdale or Continental, a lot less pompous shooters..
     
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  11. Semperfi909

    Semperfi909 Mega Poster

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    I must admit that I often find Mr. Dysinger's rants well into the irrational but this one is right to the heart of it. Sadly, of course, it will have no effect on the path the ATA has chosen however insightful Mr. Dysinger may be.
     
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  12. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster Forum Leader

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    Seems the Old ''Metrecal for lunch bunch'' crowd are still holding their own though, percentage wise.
     
  13. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I remember back in 1978 when people thought we were nuts for spending $1,600-$1,700 on a new TM1 or a Mono gun.
    In 1975 when Skeet-Trap here in Pgh was going out of business a NIB Y model 12 was $326.00. Should have bought more than one.
     
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  14. T Jordan

    T Jordan Active Member V I P

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    I was not at any of the CC shoots this year but do believe there is issues. I was told they are trying different color targets too as the shot screen is faded and is getting more silver looking.

    Rubber Pat trap springs are like the old Perazzi coil springs they get real soft and mushy but keep on working and never break. The original coil springs were breaking so Pat trap went to the rubber ones. Lots have clubs that throw lots of targets have proved with good radar guns the old rubber springs change a lot in a normal day. Clubs like the CC that throw more targets than any club in the country can't stay with the same ten year old rubber springs. Anyone who thinks 10 year old rubber springs are all throwing the same speed consistently in hot or cold weather has never worked with them much.

    They brought out new metal springs made to fix the erratic consistency of the rubber ones. They throw the same speed all day in any weather but some of them are breaking too. At least they are making an effort to fix the problem.
     
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  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    Ya know, Brad might be on to something. I'm finding those big, heavy guns were much easier to shoot when I was younger. Putting it another way I call my Trap Special 32" O/U the best 49/50 Singles gun I've ever owned. Of course, us release trigger shooters find a quality long lasting release trigger is much easier to maintain in a better gun than let's say a Remington 1100. So, my Winchester SX-1 can easily be seen as the easiest gun to successfully shoot under difficult conditions and those 50 straights are far more common. Unfortunately, those older guns release triggers never seemed to hold up and the gunsmiths who worked on 'em have mostly disappeared (died). That leaves us with a tradeoff-shoot the newer guns a bit poorly but no need to carry several extra release trigger assemblies just for the inevitable breakdown. Some of us can remember the late Pete McCall and his dilemma with SX-1 release triggers.

    That said, I'm preparing for rest of my next life by putting together an old Winchester Model 12 pre-64 with a small collection of release triggers. The addition of a PFS stock eliminated the recoil issue with that gun and release triggers held up pretty good in the past. Since I started shooting Trap in 1963 with one and the dang thing still feels pretty good, bring it on old age!
     
  16. Orangeman

    Orangeman Member

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    Is this a re-emerging trend? Should we be taking a model 12 or a flat shooting tm1 for the windy days? Vendors might like us having a few extra guns. The idea of changing equipment according to conditions is similar to hunting. You wouldn’t want a long gun chasing grouse in the grape vines. But you might want a longer barrel for doves. Having a 32 top single on the ready for singles?
     
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  17. BAMA

    BAMA Mega Poster

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    If it wasn't for "fat guys over 50 with high-end guns" there would be no Trapshooting of any consequence. Does Dysinger think these young kids pay and maintain Trap clubs, or in most cases even pay for the guns, ammo, or shooting costs they incur? Every young kid shooting should thank all those "over 50 fat guys shooting high-end guns" for making it possible for them to have a place to shoot. Most "over 50 fat guys with the high-end guns" shoot as a hobby anyway. I don't believe in most cases they think they are going to win anything. They just shoot and support the sport because they like it.
     
  18. Orangeman

    Orangeman Member

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    Bama— I am a newbie here. Thanks for the add but I didn’t think Dysinger’s post was an over the top knock on the chubby guys. Mostly it was about the heavy guns. Too heavy for the wind.

    Recognizing new shooters that more resemble athletes is good or bad?
     
  19. debshouseboy

    debshouseboy Member

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    Well said , BAMA
     
  20. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster Forum Leader

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    I'd like to see a 20 ga only class with a max gun weight of 7 lbs. Even O/Us. Keep the 27 yard line with mandatory reductions Just think of the scramble of gun manufacturers rushing to build the latest guns. This would really be an achievement to reach the 27 yd line. In other words abolish all 12 ga guns.
     
  21. Semperfi909

    Semperfi909 Mega Poster

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    Intentional or not, Mr.Dysinger has intrinsic to his comment the reason that oldfatguys are the mainstay. Dumbed down game that shooters mostly don't GAF about. You want a significant number of under 50 shooters then it would seem a change to the game might attract them - the current one obviously does not.
     
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  22. Semperfi909

    Semperfi909 Mega Poster

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    ATA'ers squeal like a piggie at 3-hole targets and you think they're gonna shoot a 20ga?
     
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  23. Shamus

    Shamus Active Member

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    It is not only trap with old guys and heavy guns. Go to a sporting clays course sometimes and look around.
     
  24. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    And it's not only fat old guys. Look at the pictures from the shoots - rampant obesity and a good deal of it among the kids.
     
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  25. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    One third of ATA members are SCTP or AIM shooters, 0ne thrid are vets and sr vets. Which ones are the future of the ATA?
     
  26. 635 G

    635 G Mega Poster

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    There's the old adage, "I'm eating my way to AAA27AAA"--its a shame we lost way to many GREATS to lousy life styles

    Living in a camper/RV in pursuit of All American points, eating junk food is a sure way to an early demise.

    RIP-Leo Harrison--its a shame you were in Sparta-in the middle of shitz creek to far from good medical services
     
  27. Semperfi909

    Semperfi909 Mega Poster

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    How many SCTP or AIM shooters continue when Pops quits paying the bills?
     
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  28. Fargo2

    Fargo2 Well-Known Member

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    The fast moving top singles aren’t cheap. Bowen and Seitz would be at the top of my list. Keieghoff kx6 and the Perazzi top singles rock. Good guns aren’t cheap regardless of where the barrel is.
     
  29. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

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    Great question.

    The educated youth that sees no return won’t shoot. No money to win. 10 to 1 they aren’t into investments of trinkets.

    I will give you infinitely high odds that old farts stop shooting when the heart stops. Who do you invest in?
     
  30. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster Forum Leader

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    Took one of my stepsons to see his first trap shoot at the Cardinal center. The kid and his GF can shoot. His first question was ''where are the big money sponsor's''? He never asked to go to another shoot.
     
  31. Elsie

    Elsie Well-Known Member

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    I agree with most of what Brad said but I got a chuckled out of him saying we need to go back to a BT99 type gun. LOL

    I laugh because when I first started shooting as a kid at our local "conservation" club anybody with any Browning was thought to have more money than sense, and I can't remember anybody shooting one. LOL Oh yeah we heard about the guy the next county over who had one. And we also heard rumors that the richest guy in the area who shot registered targets shot an Itacha 4E whatever the hell that was.

    If you had extra money at our club and took the sport serious you shot a Winchester Model 12 or a Remington 870. Most of us were shooting JC Higgins, Savage, Mossberg, Ted Williams, etal A JC Higgins with a poly choke was a desireable gun back then. With the poly choke - you could open it up for quail, woodcock, tighten it up a little for squirrels, rabbits and crank it full choke for shooting ducks and handicap trap targets. LOL

    I remember the first guy at our club who got a BT99. Wow we thought -a Browning and a Browning devoted to nothing but trap shooting. We didn't know Roger had that kind of money. The general consensus was - he was crazy. I mean the dam gun was only good for one thing - shooting trap. You couldn't take the gun hunting because it didn't have any safety, and you would only get one shot off. LOL Why didn't the dumb bastard go buy a Remington 870 or 1100 for 1/4 of the money? With an 1100 he could have had a gun that shot 5 times, a gun he could take duck hunting with a plug, deer hunting with a slug barrel, quail, rabbit. He could have taken it in the field, boat and still shoot it on Sunday at the club. LOL But instead he bought a GD gun that only shot once with no safety - absolutely useless except on trap field. LMAO
     
  32. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Elsie you are spot on. I broke my first 25 straight with a 870 wing master 3 in mag duck gun one fall when I was 18. I just shot trap to practice for hunting. This was the first 12 ga I ever owned. After the next falls duck season when I turned 19 I joined the ATA and started shooting registered, at first just for hunting practice.


    My first trap gun was my dad's model 12 that had a Simmons rib on it, a trap special model. I shot the model 12 for doubles too for about three years, 74, 75 and most of 76. I used Dad's 101 for doubles at the 1976 grand and broke a 98 and 97 (the 2 highest scores I'd ever broken) and tied for the grand HOA with Gene Sears and he beat me in the shoot off. I think we went two rounds, but I could see that if I wanted to be a competitive shooter I was going to have to get a doubles gun.

    After trying a 1100 for while that Frank Ptak loaned me I traded my 870 duck gun for a Super X - 1 trap model, straight stock that I could hunt with and shoot doubles. No way I could justify having a shotgun that was just for trap doubles. This Super X later became my pigeon gun and I killed several 25 straight with that gun that cost $400 new. I also shot it for 16's one season to practice for live birds when I saw where the real money in shotgun shooting was to be had.

    When my dad's model 12 broke when I was out west one spring on the chain I purchased a BT - 99 that had a screwed up stock on it, it had a piece of pine in it to raise the point of aim I guess but it hurt the price a lot because of the looks. I paid $250 dollars from Gene Sears for it at a Vegas shoot in 78. I really shot the gun well but it kicked like a mule, it had a 32 inch barrel. I won a lot of money with it and a lot of handicaps.

    Then when I got hooked up with Beretta and they gave me a 680 combo to shoot. That was the first new trap gun I ever had, that was in 1981. Over the years I have broken 200's with 14 or 15 different guns, 100's in doubles with 8 or 9 models and 100's in caps with 4 or 5.

    Working for Beretta I had the opportunity to shoot any trap gun they made. My favorite's were the 302 and the 680 series O/U top singles. I liked the 30 O/U and the 32 top singles. I shot that combo for the last 15 years or so that I was on the road. It is still my favorite trap gun, the Super X -! my favorite bird gun. I shoot my 302 yet for waterfowl, but once in awhile I use one of model -12's for old time sake. I wish I still had that Super X but is long gone in some trade some time back.
     
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  33. BAMA

    BAMA Mega Poster

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    And who is paying for SCTP and AIM shooters? Older fat parents!
     
  34. paBOB

    paBOB Active Member

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    Bama taking shots at the parents? Fat wallets maybe. Those SCTP kids have some nice guns. Strangely the guns fit them better than their parent’s guns sometimes.
     
  35. 635 G

    635 G Mega Poster

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    Got love it when a kid shooting a high end gun gets discounts for shooting, just like senior citizens who get discounts even though they have 7 figure retirement income--IMHO all discounts should be means tested
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2020
  36. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Most of the SCTP teams in Ohio get their money from the Midway Foundation. Many, indeed I say most, of the SCTP kids come from new non trap shooting families. In fact a bunch of these kids parents take up trap shooting after they see how much fun the kids are having.

    The ATA gives these SCTP kids nothing for shooting the SCTP singles events as registered targets, while the SCTP handicap and doubles events are shot non registered. The ATA on the other hand gains a 1/3 member boost. Without these kids many of the trap clubs that the old fat guys go to wouldn't exist. ATA registered shooting is not keeping any shooting club open. Old fat guys spend their money on guns that they can't shoot and their time bitching about the kids and the targets.

    The SCTP is the number one money maker for the Cardinal Center and all the improvements that are going on there that the old fat guys get to enjoy when an ATA shoot is put on is directly from them. If anyone thinks that's not the case then why have so many Registered clubs that old fat guy ATA shooters attend went out of business?

    Many of the old fat guys that are too often members of the occupy the 27 yard line crowd seem to have an inflated opinion of what they bring to the sport. It's funny that it always seems to get to money, how much these kids are spending without grandpa and how much the old fat guys gun costs. One thing the old fat guys should think about is that without these young shooters the ATA has no future and your Social Security and Pension has no money. Best to be nice to them I'd think.
     
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  37. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie State HOF Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    BAMA, 635 G, You guys are starting to sound like democrats. L.O.L. Roger C.
    AMEN Brad, the old fat men are not the future of this sport.
     
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  38. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Old fat men are definitely not the future but they are the reason the sport is what it is today.
     
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  39. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Columbus you are so right about that.
     
  40. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Now you guys are getting it. A while back I put up a thread about the reason we have easy targets. It is because a lot of the delegates and some of their pals cant swing their guns beyond their bellies. Some stand on the 27 with 82 averages. Or worse.

    Do you think those delegates with those averages want a more challenging target? The SCTP kids and the juniors would enjoy it. The chubbies on the 27 not so much.

    Those delegates don’t give a rats ass about challenging the Juniors. Jmho

    (time to bump that old thread)
     
  41. Semperfi909

    Semperfi909 Mega Poster

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    I'm not sure that is a comment with any positive content.
     
  42. potterybreaker

    potterybreaker Member

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    I keep waiting for Dave Berlet to weigh in on this subject. (pun intended)
     
  43. BAMA

    BAMA Mega Poster

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    The fact is, old fat guys and older fat parents pay for just about everything. And guess what? When these old fat guys are gone, the next generation of old fat guys will come along, paying the bill. That is the future of Trapshooting if it has a future at all. Just a different generation of old fat guys footing the bill, because they like to stand on the 27 and shoot their 82's, for the fun of it. What the old fats guys bring to the sport (if one calls Trapshooting a sport) is keeping the high-end gun makers in business, doing all the work around the non-commercial gun clubs, serving on the boards, fixing the equipment, and maintaining the infrastructure for no pay or recognition, while tolerating the young kids that come to shoot as they contribute nothing to the game at this point in their young lives. Because they are usually gone (as soon as Daddy quits paying bills) from the game until they become "Old fat guy's with high-end guns." Then the process starts all over again.... Been there and done that.
     
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  44. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster Forum Leader

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    You might say a ''vicious cycle''.
     
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  45. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I have been trying to stay away from these heavy threads but this reminds me of my local park. Harvey Firestone built it with rolling hills and some green meadows. There is a 3 acre duck pond for kids to fish. The grass has always had kids playing football and throwing frisbees.

    Some older people got on the park board. They put in lots of sidewalks criss crossing to all points. They think the pond looks better with the algae killer. Killed the baby fish tho. Patios surround the pond and they added some concrete walls to make it easier for the old ladies to get close to the water.

    The kids don’t fish much now. Diving for frisbees isn’t fun around sidewalks. There are fewer footballs thrown.

    Reminds me of the old farts in our sport. Keeping the targets easy. Like the old ladies and the sidewalks that have to be all around the park. No more green meadows. Kids stop shooting trap out of boredom. And the old farts have better averages. It is easier to walk on sidewalks.
     
  46. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    rookieshooter if old fat guys of today would just look at a trap and field magazine from when you and flyersarebest and I started shooting they would see that old fat guys are a new phenomenon. In the 70's none of us were fat, or old. It's to bad today's old fat guys think they are so damn smart and so self important. It's OK to them if the ATA dumbs down the targets to make them feel young, I suggest a skinny mirror for the other.
     
  47. Welther

    Welther Active Member

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    I think the Seitz and Bowen crowd might be chuckling at the thread. But I think the top single Pguns move as fast as any. Brownings and model 12s aren’t the only top singles.
     
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  48. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet State HOF Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    OK you wanted this fat old man to weigh in so here goes. I'll weigh in so hang onto your suspenders.( No comment) Now doe's that satisfy all of you? LOL

    All joking aside our sport is on a downward slide. As I see it the only chance that we have for survival is to hope that enough of our youth shooters continue to participate and that some of our past young shooters return to compete before registered shooting completely withers and dies.

    In my opinion there are several things that need to happen. When the targets have gotten shorter and narrower. With the coming of plastic( wads, shell casings), harder shot, voice calls, and everything adjustable on the new guns the scores have risen to make this a perfection sport, which it should not be. Back in the 60's I remember shooting off for trophies in the top singles class at the grand with less than a perfect score. AA was the top class then. Also perfect scores in the doubles events were practically unheard of. On handicap in the late 50's a score of 90 would be sure to get you a $40 dollar money in the purse. In our area the 50 target Sunday afternoon meat shoots are very popular. My feelings are that these shoots are so popular is because without spending a arm and a leg the competitors are shooting for something more substantial than a ribbon. These programs are figured Lewis class with 8 to a class and pay 4 places each class. Meaning the top shooters aren't shooting against the shooters who normally break lower scores. Going in we know that half of the entries are going to be a winner. Also you can enter as often as you like. Not to be taken to believe that this would be a good working program for a State Shoot or any large shoot, but for small 2- 3 trap clubs this works well. All the entrants are competing for a good prize and they are having fun. Normally these targets are a little wider and a little longer than ATA targets.

    If it's not to late we need more sponsors to put some money into our larger shoots such as was done during the Cardinal Classic. $10,000 added to a $5.00 Lewis. There were just over 1100 entries in the event with 1020 playing the option. I don't believe that we need longer yardage at this point in time, but we do need longer and wider targets. Also to have any chance for our handicap system to work we not only need mandatory yardage, but also mandatory REDUCTIONS. The sport also needs to be controlled by the life members as it was during its first many years. I am not in favor of a new organization at this time, but it may be the only way out if our leaders are not willing to make changes.

    Well now I have weighed in, so jump on. I realize that my days in the sunshine are mostly in the past, but I would like to see my lifetime sport be able to prosper and continue.

    Dave Berlet
     
  49. T Jordan

    T Jordan Active Member V I P

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    I agree Dave! My thoughts are: every big major shoot like a State Shoot, the Grand or Satellite Grands or with ATA points should have to throw a straight away from post 1 and 5 (the same as the old 3 hole target). All other clubs with smaller shoots could stay as it is now or do whatever they choose to help attendance at their clubs. If they threw a softer target for the kids or older shooters at their club that are not hitting the major shoots who cares? Mandatory reductions would put lots of money back in the game! Half the 27 yard shooters and other long yardage shooters would be back on the 20 yard line and playing the options again.

    I shot our local winter interclub on normal ATA speed targets and it is ok. but most years ATA shooters win most of the trophies and the average shooter does not do well. A softer target in bad conditions help the new shooters etc.

    Terry Jordan.
     
  50. Mr. D

    Mr. D Active Member

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    I'm old but not fat and my gun weights 8 and change. I'm also not an ATA member for no other reason than I haven't got around to that yet being a fairly new shooter. Assuming I was a special ATA type and headed over to the local ATA shoot I really could care less at the end of the day what my score was. I would be more concerned with did I have fun and enjoy the experience.

    For me this is a hobby not a means to fund my retirement. As for a trophy, I already have enough dust collectors in my house for the kids to throw away when I'm done.
     
  51. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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    Got that right!! looks like a U.T.V sales lot. At least us fat shooters have to walk to the line - not drive up in a airconditioned U.T.V. - clubs have to go where the money is--Our local golf course charges a docking fee for all carts brought in -- Bringing this up to our club next year for all the sporters. Do any other clubs charge a docking fee?
     
  52. patch 2

    patch 2 Active Member

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    I think they need to bring back an industry class of shooters. If they are good enough to be sponsored or get paid in any way, such as classes or videos, they should be industry class. i also believe if they work or sell guns they should be industry class. This game definitely needs some change.
     
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  53. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Don't care what your score is??
    I have to wave the BS flag on that one, my friend. No one I've ever known shoots a round of trap without wanting to know how many he/she broke. That's the whole purpose of shooting at the target. If you didn't care what your score is, you'd just point the gun up in the air after you called pull and yank the trigger.
    You may not put a great deal of emphasis on your score at the end of the round, but you care what it is. If you didn't care you'd be shooting empty beer cans off fence posts instead of trap.
     
  54. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    I've always hated to miss and had the same issue since I started in 1963. To each his own!
     
  55. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Try again after you completely sleep it off, Roger. It's "sauce"........
    :D
     
  56. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

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    Do we need to coin or invent a belt length to gun weight ratio?
     
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  57. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

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    This is the Stat Man chubby shooter formula. Can you effectively shoot a heavy unsingle gun?

    Step #1 solve for A

    A = Gut size at the belly in inches minus 2 X neck size

    Step # 2 solve for B

    age divided by 2 = B

    If A + B > 40 top single only
    A + B < or = 39 top single or bottom single or O/U

    Heavy wind days add 2.7 to the sum of A+B.
     
  58. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

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    Example: Peter Griffin

    249BBBBD-288D-4D9C-87E0-FDEC189AEB03.jpeg

    Gut size 62
    Neck 19
    Age 50

    A. 62 - (2 X 19) = 24
    B. 50 divided by 2 = 25

    A + B = 49
    A + B > 39 Peter needs a top single.

     
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  59. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    STaT nAn STaN I'm not sure how much historical research you have used for your formula, and without the graph master's wisdom being bestowed on us I don't know its validity but I'll punch in my numbers for you.

    My belly button measurement is 42 inches (waist 36)
    My neck is 19 inches x 2 = 38 answer step 1 is 4
    My age is 66 divided by 2 = 33
    4 + 33 = 37, add wind 2.7 = 39.2 which is one Eight Sisters cream stick away from top single only.

    I haven't shot an unsingle since 1984 anyhow so I can have those Eight Sister’s donuts and not worry about it.

    Just for fun I'll punch in the much younger, much more fit Brad Dysinger from 25 years ago.

    Belly Button 35 inches
    Neck Size 22 inches x 2 = 44 35 - 44 = (9) negative 9
    Age 46 divided by 2 = 22
    (9) + 22 = 13 add wind 2.7 = 15.7

    After reading your chart it's no wonder I was known as a wind shooter. But even in my fittest days I knew I wasn't man enough to shoot an unsingle. Maybe if they had been throwing the short narrow angles that the ATA does today it might have been different, but I don't think so.

    If people remember Leo never shot an unsingle either.
     
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  60. Mr. D

    Mr. D Active Member

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    I was referring to ATA registered. I'm not at a level of proficiency with my Trap shooting at this point to even enter an ATA shoot so if I was to attend one I stand behind my statement.
     
  61. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Assuming I was a special ATA type and headed over to the local ATA shoot I really could care less at the end of the day what my score was. I would be more concerned with did I have fun and enjoy the experience."

    I read that 6 times and still don't know what it means

    So, if someone came up to you ( you don't care so you wouldn't have checked) and told you that you broke say, a 166 in the 16's you wouldn't care? Not even a little bit? You wouldn't think, Man, that sucked, I have to practice more? You would just ho-hum it and go on your way?

    Not doubting you. It's just that I have NEVER bumped into any shooter that didn't care what they broke, or killed.

    There were some guys that cared a great deal. lol

    Our 25 target per week winter league. Under the lights with about a foot of snow on the ground. A good friend breaks about 20. He usually was good for a 24-25. The 101 Single barrel can be broken down into 3 pieces. The barrel will fly farther than the forearm due to its weight. It also was easier to find since it landed vertically.

    Registered 16's, An educated gentleman, worked at the bank, is shooting 16's with a TM1. Not a great shot but good for 92-96(3 hole targets) most of the time. I blistering 84 and the TM1 made it from post 5 to 1 but it wasn't carried. You can actually kick a TM1 about 3 feet when it in the open position.

    Ever see a core sample taken? Miss 5 on the first trap and run the next 75 from the 27 the day of the Grand. (Vandalia)
    Not me but I pretty much thought the same way.

    Take a TM1 with Lusso grade wood and wrap it around the wrought iron post on the railing going upstairs in your house.
    Broke a 97 then 3 straights then another 97 in a marathon. Again, not me, but shot with him for years.

    State team member, trophy winner at the state shoot. AA average on 16's. Ever see a guy stuff a BT99 into a garbage can outside the club house?

    How about a AA (no AAA then) shooter that was on quite a few state teams and won a trophy or two at the Grand(Vandalia). Break a 99 in the first hundred. Walk back to the trunk of his car and THROW the 870 into the trunk.
    Then think about it, take the gun out to make sure the bead is still on then THROW it back into the trunk.

    A business owner that was a decent shot. More than a few times pays for the 200 targets and all the options, and after a not so great first hundred, gets in his car and goes home. More than a handful of times mind you. You can't make this stuff up. LOL

    When you have been around as long as some of us have Mr. D you get to see a lot of cool stuff.

    Yeah Mr. D. by not caring what you break you will save yourself a lot of headache and money.
     
  62. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Ok. My avatar resembles the above picture. But I no longer look like that!!! Not long ago I did. Spending time in the gym.

    As requested....

    belly 36
    neck 17
    age. 59

    36 - 2 x 17= 2

    2 + half of 59 = 26.5. wind factor puts me at 30.

    StAt mAn is a bully.

    Time for a graph!
     
  63. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Congrats on the fortitude to keep at it FG
     
  64. Black Magic

    Black Magic Member Member State Hall of Fame

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    I can think of a used to be perennial All American by name of Pat that needs to apply this math. Get rid of that unsingle.
     
  65. TRUMP GUY

    TRUMP GUY Active Member

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    Math for The Donald?
     
  66. Got Beagles

    Got Beagles Active Member

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    Over seventy with a 50 inch waist. Lol He couldn’t swing a revolver.
     
  67. Mr. D

    Mr. D Active Member

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    My take away so far in this thread;

    1) It has something to do with old fat guys and guns.
    2) Old fat guys should not be buying $20,000 trap guns.
    3) Old fat guys instead should be spending that $20,000 on SCTP trained boys and girls.
    4) Some Cardinal didn't score well because the SCTP guys and gals were somewhere else.
    5) Oh and some dude over seventy has a 50 inch waist and bangs some hot chick.

    Had to go look up SCPT.
     
  68. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Damn! I ran my numbers and it tells me I’d be better off shooting spitballs through a straw. Since I’m an old fat guy, is okay if I buy an expensive gun as long as it’s light and fast? Do they make such a gun? I’m sure glad we have you Democrats here to tell us old fat guys how to spend our money! Gotta go now. Watching Judge Barrett explaining to our U.S. Senators how the U.S. Constitution works. She is BY FAR the smartest person in that room!
     
  69. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

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    To be sensitive we should say statistically challenged?

    The formula does not make a correlation between expensive fast swinging guns and cheap fast swinging guns. Are top singles more expensive than bottom singles?

    Objects tend to stay at rest regardless of purchase price.
     
  70. Mr. D

    Mr. D Active Member

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    The cause and effect of expensive material making things swing faster than inexpensive material is proven science.

    Example;

    What makes a woman's panties drop faster, a diamond or a rock?
     
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  71. 10ga32

    10ga32 Active Member

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    Cheap Tequila!
     
  72. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Guys, I’m just busting Brad’s chops. The only things Brad dislikes more than Democrats are expensive trap guns and those that buy them. For some reason Brad really has a problem with Krieghoff guns. I think some young German girl must have broke his heart in high school. I’ve never cared one bit what gun somebody shoots. I’ve been beat by Remington 870’s, gold encrusted K80’s and everything in between. I don’t gamble or chase women or race cars. I have nothing against those that do those things if that is what they want to spend their money on and it makes them happy, go for it. Me, I just like nice guns.
     
  73. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    The reason I have a problem with 20 thousand dollar k - 80's is that the majority of their owners think they know more about trap shooting than anyone else just because they can afford one. And then when they find out that they still only have the ability to break and 82 in handicap they set around at the silver dollar bitching about the hard targets and the money shooters with the model 12's, that are kicking their asses. A complaining about how unfair it is that these shooters got free shells or how they are able to make a living shooting trap. And that NO MATTER how much money they have they will still always suck l, so let's make the angles easier. Let’s throw the birds softer. Let’s shoot all the targets on one field. Let’s shoot on the 27 because it's my right too even if I average 80, I paid for it, let's just throw out 100 years of trap shooting history to make us feel better because we can afford a $20,000 gun that no body has ever been able to shoot hard windy targets with. (and if you say Kay, check his scores in the wind when we were shooting 3 hole) If you don't believe me ask McCarthy. Unfortunately you can't ask EG, but like I told Pat and EG many times the K is for kick and the 80 for your score. Hell let's even buy our way into the HOF.

    K - 80 shooters are the people that should have stayed at skeet shooting in the first place, but NO they wanted to hang out with the fun guys, the beer drinkers, and they drug trap shooting down to SKEET shooter level.
     
  74. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Take it easy Brad! You covered a lot of ground there. Came pretty close to stutter typing like your old nemesis. Since I’ve never fired a shot in the State of Florida I haven’t had the displeasure of listening to those ultra rich, K80 toting, closet skeet shootin’ S.O.B.’s. I kinda thought the crowd at the Dollar preferred Perazzi’s and Seitz guns? I take it these whining cry babies are or were members of the EC so they had the ability to change registered shooting? You have already explained to us that the EC doesn’t listen to or care about what the membership wants so why would they change things for these A-holes? After reading your last post it’s easy to see why those guys would want to hang out with “fun time“ Brad!
     
  75. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    As you point out Don you were never there and not shooting then so you wouldn't know what I am talking about. You were around in 2011 when I quit shooting ATA and you do know that I could care less about the ATA and its members, I do care about trap shooting's history, and trap shooting as a sport, which is why I devote time and energy to the SCTP and Cardinal Center.

    I feel I owe something to the old shooters that I knew long before I ever met you that are dead and gone and who can't say what I'm sure they would about what is going on today. I'm talking on the role of their voice in the matter.

    I could name you names but since you would not have any first hand experience with who I'm talking about you would never really be able to know what I'm talking about anyhow.

    I stand 100% behind everything I said in my last post. Today's Registered ATA Trap Shooting suffers from an elitist mentality by too many of its members and it's one reason ATA membership is 1/3 it's formal size and the so called grand is down to 1940's levels.

    I don't like the average ATA shooter today and if I piss them off by saying that too bad. One good thing it has made not attending ATA shoots real easy. I respect very few of today's shooters with a few exceptions. There are a bunch of good young shooters coming up from the SCTP ranks that hopefully can change some attitudes around the ATA and I hope they do. I don't miss shooting ATA trap at all. Organized practice isn't for me. I fully understand why so many shooters have left registered shooting in favor of clubs like Cloverdale and Continental.

    I hope I've been clear about my meaning of my last post and I think I've said it without any ambiguity, or pandering to those who might have their feelings hurt. I will state it as clear as possible. I think that selfish men with money want to buy their way to success, brag to their acquaintance about how much the gun costs they shoot, how great a trap shot they are, that they stand on the 27 yard line, that they have won many champion trap shooting ribbons, and are on the All American Team (with 299 other shooters) no matter if fact or fiction. AND when scores of 83 are on their card BITCH about the targets and blame everything but the real culprit. Either not practicing or no talent.

    Back when I was working for Beretta shooters used to ask me what my job was, I'd tell them selling you something this year, that next year, I could convince you that you bought the wrong thing.
     
  76. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Dog gone it Brad. I thought I was confused before but after reading your last two paragraphs I know I’m confused now. On one hand you’ve explained how trapshooters that think they can buy success or better scores have ruined the game. I got that part. But then you stated your job was convincing trapshooters to buy the latest greatest trap gun every year even though you knew it wasn’t going to help them one little bit. So were you actually feeding the very same narrative that you told us has killed off ATA shooting? I need your help to figure that one out.
     
  77. Mr. D

    Mr. D Active Member

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    In 1956, the most expensive standard catalog Model 12 variation was the Pigeon Grade VR Trap gun, which had a base MSRP of $259.50. In 2020 dollars that would be about $2,500 or enough to buy a nice used B-Gun. I have a used 15 year old P-Gun and would never apologize to anyone for owning this gun. I also have a Frankenstein B-Gun and again would never apologize to anyone for owning that gun.

    Disclaimer: I'm not an ATA member, don't shoot ATA registered targets, my 16 yrd 100 target avg is 76 so yes for now I suck at the sport of Trapshooting but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. As for the 27 yard line I walk over it on my way to the 16.

    Does all that make me a selfish man, I think not.
     
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  78. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Don I'll go slow, What killed ATA shooting is changing the rules to make it easier for those old fat guys to justify owning a $20,000. single bbl shotgun that they don't shoot any better than the $400 Beretta 302's and 303 that I was responsible for selling them in the 80's.

    Beretta gave me a 680 Un single combo to shoot before I went to work for them, after going to work for them I could have shot any trap gun, any price trap gun they made. If you would have been shooting then you would know that I choose to shoot a 302 auto, the cheapest trap gun in the Beretta line. I gave Leo a 302 and got him shooting it within the first 3 months of working at Beretta. The first season he shot it he set a record for 100 straights in doubles. We sold lots of 302's. We sold lots of 302's to women and kids. 302 owners had money to spend on targets and shells, gun clubs prospered, the ATA prospered, 100,000 members in 1980.

    We agree, I was pushing guns, by showing old fat guys that even with their $20,000 single bbl they couldn't beat a young fat guy with a 302. Money spent on a gun didn't equal targets broken.

    So let's break this down, Leo and I, both around 30 years old and at the top of the game, choose to shoot $400 guns when either of us could have been given guns from the $20,000 club for the asking. Why if either of us money shooters and All Americans thought that the gun made the man didn't we do it?

    Un Singles as a gun are a better fit for one eyed shooters but not for the average trap shooter. Un singles are like pointing a fence post in the wind. The reason Beretta has a top single trap gun today is me having one made from a 682X 32 O/U. I had the bottom bbl cut off one by Hal "skeets" and I think he spelled his last name Samons from OK. Jerry Danuser and I then ordered 1000 top bbls from Beretta, no guns, on the condition that we had an exclusive. We were going to sell them to all the un single owners who wanted a top single. In this case Beretta was not as dumb as I thought and they started making top singles for themselves instead of letting us make a few thousand bucks each.

    I hope I've been able to help you with my point. I'll summarize.
    I'm sure I know what I'm talking about.
    I'm in the HOF, I spent 20 years working (that's what they called it) in the Firearms industry.
    I'm most known as a money shooter.
    I could have shot any gun made for the asking.
    I spent my life around other trap shooters who were money shooters.
    I shot with and knew the best shot gun pointers in the world.
    I shot live birds.
    I've won a few championships.
    I've never called a target or accepted a free target (that's why I can't stand our past ATA president, he cheats)
    I don't like fence setters.
    I don't like someone who won't say to my face what he will say about me behind my back.
    I don't like skeet shooters.
    I don't miss the ATA.
    I hate Democrats, dislike Lawyers, can't stand the news media, but loath never Trumpers like Kasich..
    I've had money people try and impress me and be my friend all my trap shooting life.
    I don't care who I squad with when I'm shooting as long as they shoot when it's their turn and don't try and cheat.
    I don't like to give clinics.
    I like to help new shooters, women, and kids because old men generally want me to tell them they are doing it right and won't listen anyhow. (Sell them K -80 here)
    Today there is no need for the firearms industry to support trap shooting, they are selling all the ammo they can make to young skinny men and women who own and shoot handguns and black rifles. (Thanks to all those people I mentioned above very much)
    I'm glad I'm not dependent on selling $20,000 trap guns for a living
    The ATA is dying, the OSTA is dying, without the SCTP shotgun target shooting is dying.
    The Cardinal Center won't exist on only ATA shooting either.
    If Biden gets elected Freedom in this country is dying, and ATA members still don't join the NRA for the most part.
    I'm prepared for either election outcome, I have lots of bullets and know how to use them.
    I'm sure I've left something out but I'll remedy that if I need to.
     
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  79. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Thanks for typing that slowly cuz you know I don’t read very fast. I’m glad I was able to get you to come out of your shell to tell us all how you really feel. I do worry about you pounding on your chest that hard. I don’t want to have to come visit you in the cardiology wing of the hospital any more, once was enough. I’ll think up some more crap to bug you with later. Thanks for playing!
     
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  80. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    When you've done it it's not bragging it's a fact, but who needs facts when the ATA is headed in such a fantastic direction.

    When I state something that's not true feel free to call me on it, but be ready to prove it. I came out of my shell to tell you. Sometime Don you are going to have to get off the fence and take a real position before it's too late. You can't say one thing in private and another in public.

    I'm a lot more worried about having to push you around the field in a wheel chair if you don't get those knees and hips fixed than I am concerned about my health. I've already had one brain aneurysm, now I cause them.
     
  81. Don Cogan

    Don Cogan Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Come on now, Brad. Read post #9 on this thread and you will see that I already said I agreed with you. I just want to reserve the right to buy an expensive gun every now and then. The real trick is getting you to spar with me when we both know I agree with you! Sometimes we need to stir this morgue up, get some excitement going.

    My knees really do suck! If I would loose the gut it would certainly help but the knees gotta go regardless. The good news is you are now healthy enough to push me around in a wheel chair. We can take turns shooting my Beretta 28 ga auto. It would be like you were still “working” for Beretta.

    I can tell you this now. Last Sunday I volunteered at a breast cancer shoot at a small two trap club in Michigan. We had 20 squads! 50 trap targets and 25 sporting clays. We were just a smidge over the Michigan Queen’s 100 person limit and that felt great! Lots of kids and ladies shooting and having a good time. I know there were a few ATA shooters there but most were not. It was your kinda crowd.

    Don’t shoot all the birds before I get out there!
     
  82. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie State HOF Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Brad, There are a lot of people that call them selves trap shooters that will never have a brain aneuryism, they do not have a brain to start with. I'm sure we could each make up a list and have many of the same names on them. Roger C.
     
  83. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    Let's say this one more time. Many of the great trapshooters from the infamous 3-hole era were also great trap readers. Who cared if the angles were a bit wider-you either shot them where they were or straightened 'em out. I know-I was pretty good at it. Now let's move on to the one thing that made trapshooting easier-voice activated systems-especially from the fence. The horse is dead and buried-time to move on! I'm sure Brad remembers locking the trap!
     
  84. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie State HOF Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Oleo, After the mechanical interuptors were mandated in the 1524 trap machines. It was totally impossible to read the trap consistantly. If some of the lobe was ground off of the interuptor gear it was easier but not 100% of the time. You could not lock a properly set up interupted machine. I manufactured those machines for 20+ years, and have heard that bull shit for most of those years Even to lock a non interupted trap you had to have a squad that shot together all the time. If you had a person that did not stick to the timing of the squad it did no work.
    I shot with all Americans most of my life and never did we discuss locking a trap. We shot what ever came out of the house, We never had every trap set to our specifications, we shot trap. Roger C.
     
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  85. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    You're right Roger "consistently" but still readable to a great degree. Besides that, more than a few clubs either never installed an interrupter gear or never replaced it when worn. As far as locking the trap, you're right, one member that couldn't keep up with squad timing would screw up the system but some top squads were pretty good at it-until the trap boy wouldn't cooperate. Besides, interrupters weren't mandated until the early 70's-before then-what?
     
  86. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie State HOF Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Oleolliedawg, I agree pre interuptor they could be read. I had shooters try to tell me they could read after the interuptor was introduced. If the lobe was ground dowm it only interupted about 50% of the times it should have this made it possible to almost read.. Many clubs did not install them, and used the #1 peg hole. They were the CHEATERS that ruined the sport with the help of the BOD and EC. Many were cought when the ATA mandated all machines be certified by a mechanic with a signed afadavid.
    It did not stop the cheaters. Roger C.
     
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  87. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet State HOF Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Don speaking of nice guns I take it that you are speaking of the nice mod. 12 that you have purchased in the not too distant past and as I understand have shot pretty well. In my opinion the model 12 Winchester is one of the best pointing trap guns That was ever made.

    Brad speaking of fat old men I kind of have it in my mind that you may think that I am in this group. I really hope not but whatever. I won't mention the brand because their people were very nice and accommodating to me and I have nothing but good feelings to their company. I won a high dollar trap gun which was a top single with a high rib and I really wanted to shoot this gun well, but I shot it for two seasons and I broke some good scores but I was never able too be very consistent with it so I went back to my 682 top single with the standard low rib with a delrin add on. My belief is that the extra height of the rib and it being a rather heavy gun plus getting a little older were three things that worked against me having a lot of success with this gun. Also Brad do you remember when I started shooting the 682 it was as you stated an under single and I shot it very well on singles, but not very well on handicap until I made the spacer that I put under the rib out at the muzzle end. It was about 8" long and as you looked down the rib it looked like you were looking over a o/u. That helped my handicap and I gave these spacers to several other shooters, but it didn't help nearly as much as it did when I got the top single for it. I guess that there isn't probably anyone here that was even shooting back then. I guess a few, but not many. As a trapshooting friend from Michigan has often said back then we shot a $100 gun for thousands of dollars and now shooters shoot many thousand dollar guns for pickle plates or as some of the newbes cry about flashlights. What registered shooting is now is a very weak image of what we competed in back in the 60's 70's and 80's in my opinion
     
  88. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet State HOF Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I tried to edit my above post, but i ran out of time so I'll do it here.
    At the end of the first paragraph I added Don if it wasn't for the SCTP you would still be one of the young guys. LOL

    At the end of the second paragraph I added I would like to think that we could go back in that direction, but realistically it's gone and most of the readers here won't even realize what this rant is all about.

    Dave Berlet
     
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  89. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster Forum Leader

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    Was looking at 1970's mag and came across these two guys. The first guy is/was a lean mean shooting machine.
    The other is, well let's just say lean mean and standing there like he's a bag of chips and all that lol.
    The nerve of that guy in the first pic winning all those Handicap events, could have left some for us mere mortals.

    BRAD.jpg RICK.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2020
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