POLL Cardinal Vote moving the Grand upcoming expect 3-2 vote? POLL

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by merlo, Nov 7, 2019.

?

The vote to move the Grand to the Cardinal Center will be....

  1. 5-0 against. Staying at Sparta forever.

    21.7%
  2. 4-1 against. Staying at Sparta.

    10.0%
  3. 3-2 against. Staying at Sparta

    21.7%
  4. 3-2 for moving to Cardinal Center.

    10.0%
  5. 4-1 for moving to the Cardinal Center.

    6.7%
  6. 5-0 unanimous for to move to the Cardinal Center

    6.7%
  7. This will only be discussed in private with no one knowing who voted either way.

    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. merlo

    merlo Mega Poster Forum Reporter

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    The guys in the trenches are consistently telling me the vote to move the grand will be taken at the Executive meeting in December.

    Previously the idea was kept from the floor at the delegate meeting in Sparta. I am told the vote will be split but don't be surprised at the big surprise!
     
  2. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The meeting will come to order

    Are there any new proposals?

    Yes, I would like to propose something.

    NO? Meeting adjourned
     
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  3. Sparta Sid

    Sparta Sid Active Member

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    Surprise...nah. No surprise. No vote taken. The thought will not come to the floor. The deal is done. Sparta will remain the home of the Grand. The IDNR will be further investing in the infrastructure at Sparta. The SCTP will remain at the CC but they will not be missed.

    This might be the time Merlo got it wrong.
     
  4. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    This is old news. Brad Dysinger reported on the December EC meeting to discuss the proposal on August 29, 2019.

    So the meeting to discuss has now turned into a meeting to vote on a move? That's interesting. It would suggest that a significant amount of "lobbying" has taken place in the last two months. It would also seem substantially premature. Why would the ATA want to leave Sparta? According to the State of Illinois, The Grand American will be taking place at the WSRC on Aug. 5, 2020. What are the terms of the usage contract between The State of Illinois and the ATA. If Illinois has not defaulted, can the ATA simply walk away? If the EC votes to leave, what penalties will the ATA incur, and who will be responsible? And, if they do vote to leave, what will happen to all that historic stuff in THOF Bldg. What would happen to all that money the EC/HOF pissed away on that funny looking livery stable?

    I don't think the EC has the balls or the integrity to vote to leave. And, even if they did, why would they be looking at Cardinal? Do "the pals in the know" know anything about all the other proposals the EC has been looking at? Do "the pals" know whether or not Mr. Fishburn is still interested. If Mr. Fishburn has been listening to Brad Dysinger's counsel, it is altogether possible that he is not.

    This is a very curious poll. It reminds me of a red herring I once caught.
     
  5. chris henr

    chris henr Active Member

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    In a month we will see who is full of crap and who is telling the truth.
     
  6. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Probably not.
     
  7. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    dead spartans.jpg

    If you look closely at this picture you can see that the arms and legs of the dead spartans form the letters

    W S R C and ATA
     
  8. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "The SCTP will remain at the CC but they will not be missed."

    That's why Gipson, the building salesman, offered them FREE targets to stay there.

    AND THEY STILL TURNED HIM DOWN!!!

    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

    You deserve every one of those

    "Sparta will remain the home of the Grand."

    It's in your backyard and the "biggest" shoot to YOU but it sure as hell isn't the "grand" anymore. The 2000+ people that won't go there have proved that.

    1,978 last year. Not only not a 17% increase ( as you predicted) but less than the year before.

    Yep, that is something to be proud of. :confused:
     
  9. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Does such a controversial and pivotal vote matter? Is it accurate to say that the BOD can simply overrule?

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant. This is supposed to be the website that prides itself in telling the truth.
     
  10. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    I doubt this is even being discussed, nor will it ever until the State tosses them out on their Butts without much notice.

    Only one person on the present EC is looking forward ( Thank you Paul) and being pro-active.

    The rest sit there looking like nothing could ever happen..

    Just my 2c worth
     
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  11. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Gentlemen, it is for the good of the organization. As you all can see from the abysmal attendance over the last fourteen years we must do something to make the grand American great again. The plan was a failure plain and simple.

    I don't think anything is wrong, do any of you think anything is wrong? I assume from the lack of any response none of you think anything is wrong. Is there anything wrong?

    There ya go. Nothing is wrong.

    Next item on the agenda?

    How about we talk about giving LG another bonus?

    Or maybe how much more we are going to add to the fee to pay for the HOF next August?

    By the way, did our beloved ex president get his free gun yet? Quit smiling over there, you will get yours next year. We are like that Oprah show, YOU get a gun, and YOU get a get, YOU ALL get a gun. Man I love this job.

    "Hey, wait a second, there IS something wrong when you get only one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight people signing up for what once drew over thirty five hundred plus". Don't any of you agree with that?
    I know that the world shooting and recreational center is a nice place but for God's sake open you eyes and look at the numbers. Moving to a place that the MAJORITY of members didn't like was a dumb decision from the start and now look what we have.
    We have to fix it if we can, wouldn't you agree that it needs fixed?"

    Look, we appreciate your passion for the sport and your desire to get more members to rejoin and come to sparta but in reality? We just don't care if more people come or not. We have a good thing going here and besides, if we admitted we, the ata that is, screwed up it would look foolish, the Ohio and Pennsylvania member would say "we told you so" and no one wants that do they?

    Everyone that doesn't want to look like a complete moron by admitting the ata screwed the pooch please raise you hands.
    And, lets see, one, two, oh hell, lets just call it unanimous. There ya go, that takes care of that little problem. Next?


    "I kind of had a feeling this meeting was going to go this way but I had to try. Boy, you guys are something else. Keep denying there is a problem and it will go away. Well let me tell you one thing. The terrible attendance is going to continue and all the backroom building deals and payments on a building the state owns and bonuses to the executive director and any other things you have done that I don't even know about, YET, aren't going to make things better.

    AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO HOLD THE SHOOT IN SPARTA YOU WILL NEVER, AND I MEAN NEVER, GET MORE PEOPLE TO GO THERE.

    You all have a nice day and thanks for the ninety seconds you all spent thinking about how to make the ata great again."

     
  12. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The Cardinal Center seems to be doing just fine without the ED, EC and many of the suck ups on the BOD hanging around so why in God's name would they want to invite, host, or even consider having the grand at the Cardinal Center ... The State of Illinois will sooner or later lock up the WSRC and lock out the ATA without even giving an explanation other than what is printed in the daily papers and on the TV about the financial strains the State of Illinois is under ... I think Mr Fishburn is smarter than a combination of all of the Politicians from Illinois, the ED, EC and many on the BOD and he knows better than they do what will eventually happen ... If I were involved and they approached me I would laugh in their faces and let them accept that as their answer, then I would sit back and watch them fail one more time ... The ATA is not and probably will never be the attraction they once were taking into consideration the amount of shooters they have lost ... There is no shortage of shooters only a shortage of shooters interested in shooting registered targets for little to no return ... If not for Wal Mart Sparta would not even be on the map ... The time to get out of Sparta was a long time ago, they would probably be hosting twice the number of shooters if they had got out then instead of now ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  13. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    I'm not being critical, but maybe the members here are just too old for these "poll" type things. If there is any REAL information available that could potentially have an effect on our brothers and sisters in the shotguns sports, you'd think the person with the information would have balls to just make it public. The whole ATA thing is nothing more than a Junior High School melodrama. It's childish. Most adults are interested in facts, not BS.
     
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  14. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    Been going the same way as NASCAR in the past few years.

    When we attended races the stands were full, and only scalpers had any tickets for sale the day of the race.

    Today perhaps 10% of the stands are full for any race, and they say things are just fine.

    What am I missing ???????
     
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  15. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Not being critical Phantom but what do you mean the "whole ata thing"?

    Probably would have been closer if you typed HOLE instead oh whole
     
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  16. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Even though I know my version is grammatically correct, I like yours a helluvalot better! :D
     
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  17. rickyd

    rickyd Active Member

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    This will hinge on two things. Does Gipson have a lease agreement? Will the CC be willing to give the ATA VP's perks?
    Reported is that the ATA gets a bunch of free campsites at the WSRC. Who gets those?
     
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  18. Got Beagles

    Got Beagles Active Member

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    I don't see how it matters much. The Cardinal Center would lose it's Flagship shoot. It would gain a shoot it could lose money on. The place has shooting year round.

    The WSRC will stay open as long as the Martin's want it open. In my opinion Martin's dumping money into the WSRC hurts trapshooting. It is their money and they must get some satisfaction from it. Maybe getting into the HOF is enough. The shrine about them falls without their money.

    Just makes sense the Martins keep their own memory alive....jmho
     
  19. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    It only hinges on one thing, and that is the State of Illinois. If Illinois springs for another year of tossing taxpayer money down the Ol' Shithole, then ATA stays. If Illinois doesn't spring, ATA is gone.

    Even though there is a lot of talk about what might happen, nobody(and I mean NOBODY) here has a freakin' clue. It's all smoke designed to keep us hayseeds feeling like we matter.
     
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  20. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The biggest problem being most of the so called Hay Seeds don't give two shits anymore, if the ATA stays in Illinois they can deal with the reduced attendance until it isn't worth having the shoot ... If they move and it the attendance multiplies they will see first hand what a mistake they had been involved in ... There are to many Hayseeds that will not be coming back being as they have made other arrangements in the mean time ... The shoots at Cardinal Center have replaced the grand for many people, and rightfully so ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  21. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Crazy post Phantom. You know there are few people on the forum that will be voting. You don't think they have a clue?
    Could be you don't have a clue. Merlo gave you one. He hasn't steered us wrong yet.

    Or could be Phantom you have more information. Let us know.
     
  22. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    I have to believe in Mr. Fishburn and that he will not get swallowed up, and join forces with that bunch of 2012 PULLERS.

    OOOPS, that's right, my BAD, in the minutes it's only PULL, not 2012, although many times it was requested to have those minutes corrected.

    I will never let them forget that either, no matter how redundant I am.

    And The Elitist, Entitled group say they represent the shooters ?

    Any wonder why shooters are going back to shooting local leagues and enjoying it more ?

    I know many.
     
  23. harryone

    harryone Moderator

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    I am only one mod at a forum with many knowing more than me. I am hoping the thinkers and folks the ATA members have elected can make wise decisions here. I know admin at this forum does not the sport injured further.

    I hope wiser folks than me can come up with a plan.
     
  24. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    I don't know that and neither does anybody else here. But, it sounds like you know.

    So,

    Who are they?

    -and-

    What are they voting on?

    -and-

    When is the meeting?

    -and-

    Where is the meeting?

    Maybe we should hear from some of our other members out there. OK, Men, here's your chance to tell the truth. Or was I right? Nobody has a freakin' clue?
     
  25. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Take your meds and go back to bed, we will wake you when your number comes up ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  26. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Dog won't hunt. When they start attacking the messenger, everybody knows that they are afraid of the truth.
     
  27. lord maker

    lord maker Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Guys,

    I think Grand 2020 will be in Sparta. Its too late IMO to move of shoot of that size. And besides was the original report that the CC needed 18 months to build more banks and camp sites?

    I would like Grand at the CC. As its better for me personally.

    I also think the faciltiy in Sparta is fantastic, just not the loacation.

    I worry many on here want the ATA's demise. While its not a perfect orginization, I believe its demise hurts our sport more than helps. As I dont think anyone/things will step forward to fill the vaccum. Its nice having some bigger orginized shoots to go along with meat shoots etc.

    my .02
     
  28. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I got a feeling you are probably right about the grand being in Sparta in 2020, If a the grand were to move to a facility that is already up and running it could be done being as they have yet to use the entire trap line on any given day in Sparta ... The State of Illinois shuttered the facility before so whats to stop them from doing it again ..? Read the news about the Financials the State is facing and what they are trying to do to balance the books ... The Governor set a new all time low for elected Officials with his promises and no way to full fill them ...
    I think you are wrong about members wanting to see the demise of the ATA, but I also know full well that there are many (to many ) shooters who have walked or run away for one reason or many, be that as it may ... The ATA can operate on the daily fees collected at all of the grass roots clubs on their behalf if some of the frills get eliminated and become more realistic ... The Association had many Volunteers over the years who are now on the pay roll collecting big time money, with expense accounts for part time jobs ... This is nothing new, it started back in Vandalia as the turn over of people got into the amount of money generated by the Organization and it turned into a Cash Cow for all of the Volunteers ... The Shooters are still shooting, just not giving the ATA their business any longer ... WPT
    ... (YAC) ...
     
  29. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    As a lover of Trap Shooting history, I would hate to see the demise of the ATA.

    It's the stupid things that the administrators have done that get me riled.

    How do we record the history when minutes are not corrected to read the proper names of corporations doing business with the ATA?

    How are we to record history without making administrators look like they have no concern of what the Shooters actually asked for ?

    I applaud the one man on the EC who is willing to put himself out, and think ahead for the betterment of the ATA.

    That man, and his move alone, tells me there still may be hope for the shooters to have a voice.

     
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  30. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Anyone still wondering what is going to happen The Phantom remembered what I said about the whole thing back last August. The EC will never let the BOD see the offer or make any decision. If you wonder how I know just look at the thread I posted about the HOF and the offer made to them 10 years ago by the Cardinal Center and the OSTA. I've started posting the e-mails and letters I have from back then that shows how big of asses some of the Trustees (Bradford) was back then and I know how big of asses the EC is today. Read them for yourself. Lynn Parsons and Kenny Ray wanted to do the right thing for the HOF in 2009 and maybe Paul wants to do the right thing for the ATA in 2020 but the asses usually win. The right thing for trap shooting is never a consideration today, it is always how can we prop up Sparta and damn the consequences for the rest of the trap shooters in the country.

    I still am telling the Cardinal Centers powers that be to shit can their offer to ATA. I think they might be having a little offers remorse too after the last time I talked to them so maybe they have pulled the offer. I do know that they have something else HUGH in the works. The CC never sleeps.
     
  31. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The meeting will come to order

    Any new business?

    Yes, there is something I would like to address if you you don't mind.

    No? Meeting adjourned

    Hey, I'm standing right here.

    Seeing there is no new business the meeting is adjourned.

    See you all next year
     
  32. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Being pissed-off is better than being pissed on. But being pissed off, alone, doesn't accomplish anything. It's easy to be pissed off, but to fix things that are broken often takes blood, sweat and a few broken bones. If you think the "Bad Actors" are going to give up easy, you are wrong. On top of that, there is a whole battalion of lemmings out there who just don't give a shit. They bow to Bad Actors.

    The truth is that the "Bad Actors" have backed themselves into a corner. A cornered badger, however, can get mean. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few of the things they've done are actionable.

    Rank and file members of the ATA , and trapshooters and shotgun sportsmen around the world, deserve answers. We deserve the truth. We deserve a remedy. If the once stellar reputation of the premier trapshooting organization in the world has devolved into a secretive culture of whispers, innuendo and corruption, then there MUST be a remedy.

    Warriors don't sit at home and knit with the women.
     
  33. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    Phantom,

    One thing the readers of this site have is the real TRUTH about what is, and has happened, and can be substantiated by documents that HB, Brad and others have brought forth.

    It is a shame it has gone this far, but the readers should know the TRUTH, and not be lead astray by those who say "That couldn't have happened".
     
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  34. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The way the Association is structured they are virtually untouchable which was evident when the IAG was notified and they said there was nothing out of order, but recommended minor adjustments ... Unless the Association is taken to court and proved to be out of order nothing is going to happen and it will be business as usual ... The changes that were made to eliminate the Members having any say so as to how the Organization is operated was a strategic orchestrated move that took place over many years and had been expanded on since ... The "Warriors" are dying off so there are less people who care every year, and the rest walk away ... There is no way to turn back the hands of time and inject the Integrity there once was and so it goes ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  35. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    You have spoken the truth.

    If an organization is manned by members who knowingly and willingly condone corruption at its highest levels, then it is an organization that can not be saved. The ATA has sold its shadow to the devil.

    It's time to move on.
     
  36. Family Guy

    Family Guy Americantrapshooter.com King of Posters Founding Member

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    There you have it....but hold on a second. I was one of those shooters that didn't turn the other way. We were looking the other way. We thought the other guy was taking care of it. The same attitude exists now. I am proud to say not quite so much.

    This forum was created because I was one of those people. There are many of us here. We have a few delegates that also thought..."the other guys" are taking care of things.

    We are not here to save an organization. We are here to discuss what is best for our sport. There are a few things that bind us.

    We have a venue now for discussion. We are the most read website in sport. This is how you educate your pals. Have at it. Keep it fun!!
     
  37. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    There needs to be an audit of the books that is honest and not by a firm of their choosing. It should go back as many years as is needed to either confirm no hanky panky or prove the EC is corrupt. Roger C.
     
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  38. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    The problem is that one rotten apple can spoil the whole barrel. It will take some time, but it will happen. The only way to stop it is to find the rotten apple, give it to the horse and wash all the other apples and turn them into pies. Sadly, though, it's too late.

    It's time to turn the barrel over in the yard and let the yellow jackets and the horses eat the rot.

    It's time to start over. It's time to plant a tree. The Old Guard owes it to the generations to come. The ATA is a dead man walking. All of the energy that has been expended here over the last 5 years has turned to nothing more than dust in the wind. But, there is hope. With new energy and passion and resolve, the good men here at Americantrapshooters.Com and their progeny can bring forth a new and better future for Trapshooting and for all of the other shotgun sports we love.

    Because it is in Ohio, and for countless other reasons, The Cardinal Center is the spiritual home of Trapshooting. It must be there that the Phoenix rises from the ashes. We aren't deadwood. There are ideas out there that will work. Where are the heroes? Where are the men who are willing to make things right?

    Dammit! It's time to plant a tree!

    Respectfully,

    The Phantom
     
  39. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Phantom, If another group gets started to retire the present ATA corp. The existing members had better watch the bank account, To make sure it does not spend millions on swamp land in Florida as a going away present. I think the purvayer of the pull 2112 deal is still on the property committee. Roger C.
     
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  40. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    The ATA I joined in 1974 died in about 1994 when the start of the rot was changing the target rules to make it easier. Once it went from a competition dominated organization to a old boys practice club it was all she wrote. Just look at it today. For all the reasons I've stated and for all the years I've stated them we just need to admit the ATA is dead to us. I have not gave one dollar to anything ATA related for about the last 8 or 9 years. I tried to help with the OSTA and the Cardinal Center but in good conscious couldn't do it anymore.
     
  41. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    You cannot fix a rigged system by depending on those who rigged it or those who learned from those that did ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  42. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    The cancer has metastacized.
     
  43. Union Strong

    Union Strong Well-Known Member

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    Why should they move? Bradford said he can raise millions. And they have the Martins on call to further hurt the sport. Yeah I said it. Bradford and the Martins are in the HOF. They aren't leaving their shrine behind.

    In just a few weeks we will see.
     
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  44. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Union Strong, Bradford may have had a nefarious reason for his actions surrounding the building of the H.O.F. building, but Bill Martin only did what he did to further the idea having a H.O.F.
    Bill his family and friends have helped many gun clubs. Most people that know them, thank them, for their support, the ones that don't know them can not understand their generosity. The trap shooting venue would be in deep shit without them. You can take that to the bank. Roger Coveleskie
     
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  45. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    The Martins' may well have had good intentions but being an enabler for the ATA to stay in Sparta is not helping the sport at all, it is just helping the ATA keep Sparta open. NOT GOOD FOR TRAP SHOOTING at all.
     
  46. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    I know for a fact that some pretty high rollers who contributed to Bradford's call for help did NOT know that they were giving their money to the STATE of Illinois.

    That being said, I wonder IF the Martin's knew anything about this ?
     
  47. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    BRAD, Do not judge the Martins and their friends by the actions of the ATA. I have known Bill for over 25 years and, I doubt if he gave a shit about being in the H.O.F. He loves to help people and places and trap shooting is his game of choice. He and friends have helped many clubs stay open, it is their way and I have never heard of them asking for anything in return.
    Roger C.
     
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  48. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    My bitch is the rules were ignored for him and his wife to get in. Not right for everyone else.
     

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