Why not have an INVASION of the ATA Meeting in Sparta

Let's invade the ATA meeting in Sparta with a complete consortorium of ATA Members behind a group of Life Members to assume all of the offices, Have an block put on all ATA money holding, Bank Accounts, Certificates of Deposit Checking Accounts, and have a new bonded Treasurer/Secretary/President/and an Group of ATA Attorney Life Members do a take-over.

Freeze all ATA assets, we know where they are, and with whom!!!!

I would make the drive and participate in the Take-Over, I am a Life Member of the ATA.

How many of you members would participate in a take over?

Take over issue is Malfeasence of Office/and Officers/

A Hostile Takeover of the ATA for the betterment of the ATA.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

You guys would have to go to Sparta to launch a coupe. LOL
Remember it is one thing to be a keyboard Rambo but if you show up and behave like that in real life you will likely be arrested.

 

All it takes for a takeover over is a Quorum of Life Members at the meeting to perform a take-over, It is called a hostile takeover and has been done in the past to save a Corporation, A lead life member notifies banks and holding companies to freeze all accounts, create a new account for future deposits until the quorum establishes officers.

A restraining order is obtained against each BOD and EC and Office Manager, a simple process here.

GB DLS

 

. . . And I thought that FG's and S357's mistaking Lew for a Delegate was the most amazing thing I'd ever encounter here and now LS tops that in a runaway!

Where do these ideas come from? Is it time to check the water at CC?

N1H1

 

I would be with you in spirit, but have no desire to visit Sparta, Ill. again ... If we would of been on the road I would be there but the wife's Doctors appointments are far more important to me than the ATA or anything they do will ever be ... WPT ... (YAC) ... You got my proxy vote ...

 

"LS tops that in a runaway!" ... You have to admit N1H1 ... He has the ability to drag you out of silence ...

 

Well it is quite an ambitious plan.

Any idea yet who will form the leadership until such time that elections can be held.

Will each state have equal representation or will representation be based on the number of shooters?

 

User....the sight of someone or actually a small group, going off the deep end will draw a crowd.

 

And the 'cyber-land' old-man chat-rooms would be a very boring place without it .....

Ever go into a 'port-a-potty' and NOT look down the 'hole'?????? You know what you are going to see, nothing pretty about it ... but it is just part of the 'trip' .....

 

I just heard that some mental hospital in Illinois is getting a room ready for a new guest from Ohio.

 

N1H1 Keep my name out of your Slanderous remarks. You of all people have no right using my name. It would not take much
to be a better Delegate than you ever were. The present conditions of the ATA prove that.
So, go back to you charts and graphs and come up with more of you angle crap.
Lew D. Boyko

 

The Life Members of the NRA did the same kind of Take Over back in May 21 of 1977. On the night of May 21, 1977, more than 2,000 NRA members met in the Cincinnati Convention-Exposition Center in a session that lasted until nearly 4 a.m. "Perspiration," wrote Tartaro, "flowed like wine." The new NRA kicked out the Old Guard and you have the Stong NRA that you have today.
Do not say it cannot be done.
Lew D. Boyko

 

This might be the most exciting Grand American ever.

Will we see any interruption in the scheduled events?

I know many of you no longer register targets but for those of us coming to shoot it would be a real issue.

Thanks

 

"Will we see any interruption in the scheduled events?" .... "but for those of us coming to shoot it would be a real issue" ....

Would that be an example of a 'double-standard' ?????? Seems "Gipson" is willing to do this .... so unless there are TWO(2) sets of the rules, why are others not 'allowed' to do this ?????? Is there something in the 'rule-book' that says he is the ONLY person that can use this action ????????

 

USER 1 said

"Will we see any interruption in the scheduled events?" .... "but for those of us coming to shoot it would be a real issue" ....

Would that be an example of a 'double-standard' ?????? Seems "Gipson" is willing to do this .... so unless there are TWO(2) sets of the rules, why are others not 'allowed' to do this ?????? Is there something in the 'rule-book' that says he is the ONLY person that can use this action ????????

Well I don't know when Lynn Gibson ever disrupted an event.
But for those of us making the trip it would be great to know if we should make the trip or not.

 

N1H1 was referring to Lew Rawls. Although I can understand you thinking he was referring to you.

 

Have to do this by Hoyle. Step 1 would be to form the tars and featherin committee. Anyone standing up at the meeting in Sparta would get quick notice if they were to state they were from the tars and featherin committee.

 

Which office will you be accepting?

 

REMINDER:

Life Members gave up their voting rights . . . . . well, actually their representatives (State & Provincial Delegates) did way back about 1954.

Here's the authority once had by Life Members :

​

The ATA Executive Committee decided they and the Delegates should have the sole voting power :



And here's the letter explaining the need to strip voting rights from Life Members :



It is very doubtful Life Members would be permitted to address the Executive Committee and Delegates at the Annual Board of Director's Meeting.

Enjoy Our History

 

History Buff thanks for posting that.

Many of the life members on this board have a hard time understanding they never had those voting rights.

The time to do anything about this was 1954.

As always a good read.

 

Advocating a violation of the bylaws, a coup, takeover of bank accounts and believe the general membership will accept a takeover of our organazation, unelected, by a few unhappy, mentally ill malcontents? Really? With the amount of money involved, I would be the first in line, seeking arrest, conviction, prison and life banishment from the ATA for all conspirators. Oh, but wait a minute....since no one wants to make that long drive to Sparta and step foot in the place, it will never happen.

 

Why did you think Lew was a delegate?

Perhaps you were confused by the perilous thought of shooting a tougher target.

 

Maybe you should read that again, s375. One word at a time this time.

N1H1

 

All this tremendous knowledge from the mind of a non-shooter. I'm so overwhelmed!

 

You guys make it easy for a new guy to question his choice of hobbies, but not for lack of fun or love for the game. Its the people that I question, day after day for what ?? I dont think this site or the people posting are good for the sport I'm sure you guys will have all kinds of bad things to say about my opinion but man its really hard to read all this day after day. So much negative energy.

 

614 Most here don't shoot and so are unlikely to meet them.

When you are at the gun club, the topics beat to death never seem to come up.

Enjoy the sport, most of those you meet are in it for fun and love of the game.

 

Tough morning for you. I see you're still confused.

 

Then you did not read the thread about what will happen to the HOF building? Plenty of positive ideas. You need to get more involved. Did you vote IDNR Strip Joint or Bait Shop?

357 and LS are going to be leaders? They are vowing to fight our great Poobas.

Great read and informative.

And thanks for the posts KRE. I would rather read than post.

 

'Trap-talk' is the same in most Club-Houses, and even at the Grand in most gathering places. It has been that way for the very long time I have been around this sport.

As I posted before .... it is like a bunch of third-grade boys punching each other in the arm as a way of bonding. It is something that makes no sense, but creates strong bonds.

 

I am not sure how much the rank and file believes in these two? I guess we will see who shows up in Sparta to support them.

 

I remember the investment scheme o'l Lew was into.

Some Trapshooters got sucked in and it cost them a bundle.
Breeder Cattle if I recall.


Regards....Gerald

 

I never hear talk of over throwing the leadership at the clubs I attend.
Sparta is not an issue. Only a handful of us travel to Sparta.
Shooters don't debate 2 hole verses 3 hole targets.

That's not to say its not different in other places.

Shooters like well set targets, events that start on time, quality trap help and good food.
If any of those are missing there will be complaining.
We may occasionally bitch about a background or bank assignment.

 

"I never hear talk of over throwing the leadership at the clubs I attend. " .... I assume you are referring to ATA leadership ....

Because ... If you go to a 'beer-tent' at a Trapshoot ... a few beers after a bad day and they are ready to "over-throw" the world

 

The ATA EC would put a stop to any members who would come to the meeting and not agree with the agenda they themself represent ... The wedge between the EC, BOD and the members is never going to lessen because they do not want it to ... The ATA is a members organization, not owned and operated by the EC and backed up by the BOD regardless of what they think ... The ATA is in a downword spiral because the very members they choose to ignore are the one who make and or break the ATA, so as they were told before turning against the members the members will make them pay with their wallets ... The ATA can only last as long as the members let them, people can shoot a lot of targets and not have them be registered targets ... If the membership banded together and did a protest of sorts for say a year or maybe two by not shooting registered targets the ATA, (EC and BOD) would start to feel the pain and have no choice but to recognize the membership ... I see people shooting a lot of non registered targets all the time, it does not seem to be bothering them in anyway, shape, or form so they obviously do not feel the pain of not shooting at all ... I am going to get back and shoot with a few friends a couple of days per week just for kicks and giggles, now we are waiting for the weather to cool off so we don't go and get beat to death by the heat ... My Life Membership don't have an expiration date on it so I can always go and shoot regitered anytime I want, anyplace I want ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Exactly. I don't know why the few Trap forums have such a heavy ATA bias to them. Most Trap targets thrown have no connection to the ATA.

 

Well that other web page was started by a couple of dedicated ATA shooters who wanted to give shooters a place to chat in cyberland. They were ATA shooters and all of us that were there from early on were ATA trap shooters.

This site was created to give Gary, Joe, et al as place where they could say whatever they wanted about the ATA, EC and BOD. Basically a couple of them had gotten booted from the other site, and they needed an outlet.

That is why you see such a heavy ATA bias on these two sites.

But both sites are welcoming of recreational shooters and non-shooters who have an interest in shooting or shooting organizations.

 

Smoking357

You would not have such arguments if if we're not for the ATA/Sparta haters who start them.

Live and let live.

Now why don't you start some instructional threads about 5-stand, sporting clays, skeet, and turkey shoot, Annie Oakley, and porch shoot techniques and we can either have some informative dialog or talk about how rotten those types and their organizations are. Whata say?

 

WPT: The difference between the NRA and the ATA is the NRA is a dedicated group, and would not be Mis Led, they stood together, THEY KNEW THERE HAD TO BE A CHANGE, THEY TOOK THE BULL BY THE HORNS AND MADE THE CHANGE, THEY HAD INTEGRITY AND THE BALLS TO MAKE THE CHANGE. Kook how strong the NRA is today.

The ATA membership is falling off, they have given up on the ATA, the ones shooting ATA targets today have a ring in their nose and are being led like sheep to the slaughter.

I won't be led, all I can do is ask for the present shooters to stand up, take a stand and make the changes in the Presidency, the EC and BOD, the NRA does not change their President every year.

The NRA is run like a business, as the ATA should be run, The ATA President job should be a 5 year term, and elected by the membership, and votes by an Outside Reputable Source. Not by getting in line for the EXPENSIVE GUN until it is his/her turn.

The NRA has dedicated Life Members, and a lot of them, far more than the ATA has. Look mat how many active trapshooters
there was in 1955, as compared to now. Trapshooters are drifting away to other shotgun sports, where there is a competitive target, A Sport That is not into Perfection where a good score earns you pride.

Pride is earned by shooting a competitive target, The ATA All Americans are just Smoke in the wind, you put them on a competitive targets, you will see a different score, and a lot more dedicated shooters turning in competitive scores on a more competitive target.

The ATA had some very good past presidents, the last good President I have seen was Neal Crausaby, but a worthless POS stabbed him in the back every chance he got, and how he became a HOF Trustee is beyond comprehension. He is involved in that debacle as well as the 2 hole 17 degree fiasco.

We the ATA members need good leadership, and drastic changes in the ATA Rule book

We used to have a lot of shooters, shooting Registered Targets, Drastic all at once changes is what it is going to take

We got led away little by little and like sheep we took it, then an eye opening occurance. such the SPARTA DEBACLE.

I only wish Vic Reindeers was still alive today, and a lot of shooters like him.

It is going to take an action with the ATA that the NRA Members took with the NRA. Get Some Balls and take Action.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Doc, did you notice that Vic Reinders was a member of the EC when the life members rights "were taken away" according to many of your posts?

 

Could it be a good thing that those who you call the (rotten type) don't have an organization?

Dave Berlet

 

Whoa there---that is a miss use of coined words. A major matter of semantics.

It is not "Sparta Haters". Proper term as coined by those living in the Sparta area and cronies and friends is "Sparta Basher" or "ATA Basher." A term used often for describing anyone that questions the leadership of the organization.

The other term is "Cardinal Hater." Describes people that despise the mere existence of a major venue that is not subsidized by taxpayer dollars.

Trying to be helpful.

 

C.E. Huber from Ohio was president in 54 so he would have been on the EC as Past President when the rights were stripped from Life Members.

 

I thought "Doc" was going to leave this site?

 

I do not KNOW that to be fact, Vic was an upstanding staunch delegate.

GB DLS

 

Now that is funny.

 

It is a matter of public record who was on the board when the rights were stripped.
Look at the letter above Victor Reinders is listed as a VP.
You new that right?

 

If any of "Garry's Invaders" haven't been to Sparta before,
I would be happy to answer questions on where to eat or shop etc.

Or if you just need directions to the WSRC let me know and I will help where I can.

 

If "Garry's Invaders" have to make that horrendous 10 hour drive to IL it will take them a week to get there. Besides the 4 or 5 overnight stays, because they are all grumpy old men, they will have to stop and pee every 15 minutes. Put 3 or 4 guys in one car and chances are they will not have to all pee at the same time, making the stops more frequent.

 

The prospect of getting thrown out or not being let in could be a possibility.

The best to do would be draft a copy of new rules and changes to be considered, handed to the exc. director.

Regards....Gerald

 

Gerald
These are men of action.
They have been sitting at home for years typing feverishly on the World Wide Web.
They are now ready to make there big move.

Most have not registered a target in years, it must be because they have been working towards this showdown.

I expect The line of of cars headed for the BOD meeting will several miles long.

 

There are far more shooters who may not of registered a target in a year, two or more, that makes them no less of a shooter ... I shoot and do not have to put up with the ATA BS and pay fees to do it ... I also have many other shooting interests such as rifle, pistol, (several) and some high power air guns that are cheap and a blast to shoot, besides classic cars ... The people who go to the Grand think they are the only ones who support shooting sports and nothing could be farther from the truth ... I shot and attended the Grand in Vandalia many times, enjoyed every minute of it and had a lot of fun in doing so, met a lot of really nice people and made many friends ... I have never and will never shoot the Grand in Sparta ( as I said before) because I do not want to support the State of Illinois or the ATA not for what they did, but for how they did it to the membership back when they made the move to Sparta ... You have a few Illinois shooters from the Sparta area who never had nor ever would of attended the Grand if it had not relocated into their back yard, if the Grand moves anyplace else they will never shoot it again ( don't care what they say) ... I was told by a now deceased shooter that he would pay my entries and buy lunch everyday I was there if I would make it to the Grand, I respectfully declined his offer and told him if I was to come there it would only be to meet him face to face ( we became very good friends (telephone) and yet never met each other) ... The Grand is on Life support, like it or not and there are not enough shooters who attend to keep the inevitable from happening if not this year, next, or the following year, but its destined to happen ...
The ATA was told what was going to happen and given the results before they made the choice to ignore those who gave them that warning, so they will someday pay the price as the shooters continue to shoot but not support the Association ... The people who attend the Grand can blame anybody or anything all they want, facts is facts ... The shooters the ATA was going to get to replace those who will no longer support the Grand was nothing compared to what they thought (if they did) so now they get what they deserve for their loyalty to the membership they are supposed to represent ... The ATA EC and BOD (for the most part) have their own agenda and they can care less what anyone else thinks, as they wait in line for the new gun they so richly do not deserve ... Shooters will continue to shoot, others may not, thats their choice but the ATA will not benefit by it one way or the other for the most part and so it goes ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I just figured out how much shooting I did last year based on the number of flats of shells I have stored in my garage, its looks like I shot 34 1/2 flats of shells, not much but none the less still shooting ... Probably more shooting than those who profess to be shooters, not to mention .038, .357, 9MM , 40 cal, 45's, .22, 30/30 and .22 mags besides several boxes of pellets ... I shoot no reloads at all, never have except on a very rare occasion ... I better start looking for deals being as I am down to 55 flats ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I have come to the conclusion there are 3 types/categories of shooters, those who have their agenda to force on others, The followers that will swallow anything fed to them, and then there are the men w/integrity who could be great leaders if asked and some have stepped up to the plate and made suggestions, and even made the trip to Sparta to voice their opinion/ only to be denied the opportunity to speak, why isn't there a question and answer period for the membership to speak to the leaders?

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I got out all of my receipts for the ammo I shot up in the past 2 years, I will be burning them so my wife is none the wiser ... Why give 'em something else to get all cranky about ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Find a wife that shoots and problem solved!

 

According to the minutes Vic Reindeers was elected VP Central zone, his first year as a VP, I would like to know how he voted, better yet how all members of the EC and BOD voted.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

The opportunity to address the so called leaders would open a can or worms like nobody has ever seen ... They feel they are above being questioned by the membership of the sport who support it and give them their status by postition ... The members have begun to wise up over the past few years and as a result the ATA can only produce dismal numbers at was once the Biggest shoot in the world ... The blame does not revert back to where it started but goes to the shooters who quit supporting the Association by shooting less registered or not at all ... I asked a few questions about target numbers at one of the local clubs and though the numbers are down at the registered shoots the over all number of target in the air is up considerably, so whats that tell you ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I have not found any E. C. or BOD minutes during the annual GAH tournament in the old Sportsmen's Review. There are E. C. minutes for Nov. 4-6, 1955 in the December issue. I see no way of determining how each member of the E.C. or BOD voted unless those votes were recorded and those minutes have been retained by the ATA in their files.

It would be interesting to read more of their reasoning. I've seen a couple different reasons for the By-Laws amendment.

 

I enjoy the on line banter. But that is all it is.

Banging on the key board is not working on real change.

Change is not achieved by making one trip to Sparta and getting your feelings hurt.

Change is not achieved by writing a letter or two.

Change is made by the people with the dedication, time and the money to get involved.

You may not like the Delegates and the EC but these are the only people who can affect change.

Key board Rambo's don't affect the direction of the ATA.

If we did, Sparta would never of happened and we would be still shooting 3 hole targets.

And the HOF wouldn't have gotten 250K.

Flame on

 

No flame from here, if telling it like it is ruffles some feathers so be it as I have previously stated the only way changes will be made are by vote of the Delegates. If we want changes then we will have to elect Delegates who think as we do and are willing to stand up and have the changes made and it won't be all at once. It would be nice if it happened at once but I have great doubts. Doubts that it will happen at all. Talking here on making the trip to Sparta to disrupt and take over the meeting is a pipe smokers dream. ( no doubt what is being smoked) I will probably get flamed for this but that's the way it is.

 

I'm in favor of starting a new association, but I can't "associate" with myself. If people are looking for real change and a fresh start, we need to come together and show that there's interest in a new association. This thriving site started from nothing. So can a new organization. If you're interested in starting something new, send me a PM.

 

I disagree Wishbone: It's communicating to all ATA Members with a Computer of what has been going on and how to correct the wrongs that have been done

I disagree it cannot all be done at once, The Major Change is the Target Settings, Just make that change to a COMPETETIVE TARGET and most will fall in place. 44 degree angles, 50-52 yard targets at 9.5 feet. Minimum angle not less than a straight-a-way from posts #1 and #5.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

AZCOTRAP: Have you ever pissed on the side of the road, or in a large cup to get somewhere sooner, or at the convienent Road Side Rest Areas. Do you have or had kids that needed to stop or a wife that needed to stop,? Probably Not.

GB DLS

 

It would' surprise me one bit if the ATA banned longshot permanently for publicly inciting a takeover of the ATA. I bet I'm not the only one who has saved this entire thread just in case it's gets deleted.

 

Does this kind of incitement, abuse, personal attack and trolling have a place on this site? This is the sort of revengeful, retaliatory, hateful trash that was so common on the other site when Elgort ran it that made it utterly useless as a forum for open communication and discussion.

Member organizations are fully allowed by law to be taken over by the members and set on a new path. This guy's view is that a member organization exists by the management, for the management.

Unfortunately, the trash that has infected trapshooting wants to attack and hurt people for exercising member rights. If you don't want members to have the ability to take over, Sweetheart, incorporate as a closely held corporation and drop membership, altogether.

 

Smoking357

I think you are of the delusion the majority of the 28,000 or so membership of the ATA agrees with Doctor Longshot, when the reality is there is only a dozen, maybe two.

Why don't you start a poll thread and see if how many people agree with this tactic?

 

Doesn't matter. Using the organization's own processes is fully legal. If you ban a member for using legal processes, you've just lost your tax status, and you've lied to the "members" about what sort of company you really are. Leonidas' post is typical Other Site hate that drives people away from Trap.

 

357, no surprise you replied. I'm just stating an opinion like you do but I'm a little more civil about it.

You might be surprised how few ATA members agree with you and the Doc.

I do hope you two show up and try your take over. Let me know what day your coup is, I'm going to the Grand to get a gun fixed and hope to watch a live comedy act while I'm there.

Your buddy, Leonidas

 

Save it, and zip it. Nothing you say is worth reading. You're attacking another shooter and another member for doing actions within his rights to do. Shame on you.

It might be time for you to join Oleo in my trash can.

 

So you're not going to be there for the uprising? I thought with all your talk you were a man of action but it turns out you let others do your dirty work. tsk tsk

 

Like I said, you are delusional, meaning you cannot separate fact from fiction, A handful of members cannot take over any organization against the will of the majority, unless you are using dollars, stocks and bonds. Actions you promote are the acts of terrorists.

You need to grow up.

 

He's a troll, guys. He has never shot an ATA target. He just does this to get responses. As he says, "Save it (sic), and zip it."

N1H1

 

He is a delusional troll.

 

You need to smarten up and respond to what's actually being discussed. What I write, and what you read are not the same thing.

 

And you're a dismal failure as a leader, an incompetent and unaccomplished shooter and a chickens%%t who runs from a real shooting challenge.

You said you're going to enter that International event at Sparta. Fine. Here's your chance to finally prove something with real facts and not bad attempts at Statistics. If your rules made better shooters out of your ATA members, let's see you, their leader, run 50 straight in the International match, and someone can finally believe something you say.

If you don't run 50, you're wrong about every shooting-related statement you ever made, but at least you entered.

If you don't even enter, you're just chicken.

 

Smoking357,

I read what you said, but I also understand what you did not, meaning you consider criticism of DLS's plan as disrespectful. His suggestion itself, is disrespectful to the ATA membership body.

 

Hey, don't change the subject!!!!!

357, are you and the good Dr going to Sparta and take over the ATA? If so what day?

A simple YES or NO will do, thank you.

Your buddy, Leonidas

P.S. The good Dr can answer also if he wishes to be heard.

 

See what I mean?

N1H1

 

This goofball, smoking357 is a troll that doesn't even shoot trap. Best to ignore this fool!

 

What is it with you? People who do not believe as you you call trolls and you then suggest that they be ignored.

 

Of course he's a troll, LadyT. He tells outright lies in order to screw things up here even more, if possible.

Last Wednesday, in order to entice shooters here who might not otherwise go, I tried to tease them with something they might like:

"For those here who have found ATA registered targets too easy to even bother with there is an "International" event all day Monday and Tursday. Winner gets his or her name on a trophy in the Trapshooting Hall of Fame Museum. Go for it!"

In order to get a rise - and in complete disregard for the truth - s375 wrote:

"You said you're going to enter that International event at Sparta. Fine."

This is nothing but a flat-out lie. That's the way trolls work. That's what he is. He's a troll.

This is the sort of poster here you want us to associate you with?

N1H1

 

He's been bad for Trap, and he will always be bad for Trap.

I think he ultimately wants to turn Trap into a Bullseye event where clay targets are mounted on posts at 2o yards, and you say "Pull" and shoot the target on a stick.

I see he's even chickening out on entering the International event he promised to enter.

Tell you what, N1H1, I'll say "N1H1 is a respectable shooter" if you enter that International event and run seven in a row. You going to put up or be chicken?

 

357, Do you have ADHD?

The thread subject is "invasion of the ATA at Sparta"

And I ask when you and the good Dr are going to Sparta to spearhead the invasion. Please stay on the subject at hand and answer my question in a civilized manor.

 

don't forget to take a pic of the DLS HOF exhibit, please.

 

So you've also found ATA Trap isn't exciting enough and causes this. Many shooters have experienced starting out a round running the first 13-15, getting bored, daydreaming and missing a shot. It's a big problem with ATA Trap.

Current generations like things a little more exciting than watching a windmill go 'round and 'round. Spice up the game to get new interest.

 

Smoking something,

If you do not shoot trap, dislike it so much especially the ATA, why does it consume you so much? Are you bored, have nothing to do, just troll?

 

N1H1
Just what the Hell do you consider yourself. Come Neil give it a rest. Go draw some more charts or take up playing
checkers by yourself. Better yet, go find your self a new home.

Birddog

 

Trap is great. ATA Trap is outgrown and does not lead to world champions.

Don't just troll. Shoot some Real Trap.

 

I will provide some quotes from an ATA member-smoking357-who never registered a target.

April 10, 2015

"I stopped shooting over two years ago. Shells got too expensive and I lost interest in American trap. Wobble is much more interesting but it's hard to find a Wobble field. Good luck converting ATA trap to Wobble as trapshooters are the most close minded people I've ever met and they resist all changes or modifications. I'm not sure I'd even shoot Wobble at current shell prices"

May 17, 2015

"Sporting Clays is great but I'd be happier with more Wobble and 5-stand, either of which can be overlaid on existing trap fields."

"I'm just tired of 25 being a good round and 23 being a bad round that I have with American trap."

"ATA trap takes some learning but once you figure out how much to lead the hard angles on 1 and 5 and not overthink post 3 you're getting in the 20's pretty regularly."

"I got to the point where I'm not too bad at American trap. I'm from the video game generation and if I don't level up I lose interest. I'm not going to spend over $50 to hit 92-96 targets only to get told I suck."

These are words of wisdom from another resident expert-smoking357-and our newly acquired resident troll. Best to ignore!

 

So what if he doesn't shoot much. I think he fits right in here.

 

I think this comment might sum up why so many give ATA a try for a year or two then quit. Before they join they're shooting league or whatever, consistently breaking 23-24, maybe some 25s along the way. They might be competive in their league. Now join the ATA, shoot the same scores and end up with 92-96 and find they are not competitive, especially in B class where they start, and shooting those scores where they'll stay.

I'm not sure harder targets are going to solve the problem. It certainly won't make the everyday shooter more competitive with the elite. I might make them more competitive in their class though.

 

But it will. This so-called "elite" is only good at one very specific type of target. Outside of that specific target, and their skills plummet. The tougher the target, the less things like 100/0 patterns, spot shots, high ribs, release triggers, highly customized stocks, eccentric cants, high holds, and all the things that have allowed some to be very good at ATA Trap are effective. All the the ATA "big dogs" have shot a tougher game out of curiosity, and they have all found the experience to be humbling and have had their $10,000 gun with its $2,000 custom walnut stock waxed by a guy with a factory-spec, flat-shooting O/U Citori.

With harder targets, the scores of ATA "big dogs" come crashing down. A good Sporting Clays shooter and a good Skeet shooter are less thrown on the Wobble or International field.

 

Harder targets will not solve the problem!

Not one poster here has any desire to hurt shooters, gun clubs, state association, the ATA and especially not the sport of trap shooting. Since the beginning of the sport good honest people have held different opinions on just about every facet of the sport, from the size of events, permissible shotshell loads, where the Grand should be staged, whether the 18yd. line should become the new singles mark, and yes, even the settings within the Flights and Angles rules.

Personally, I would not leave the game no matter how hard or soft the targets are set. I'd like to think that most shooters feel the same way. We all just want fairness and are looking toward a top score in the events. A top score in the old days did not mean a straight score. Our greatest Hall of Famers recorded their championships with scores lower than 100 & 200 straights. Those straight score championships became more frequent when the Flights and Angles were reduced, but there was only a very few ties. Some of us believe a straight score should be a rarity, something that we all talk about for years, like the first 100 straight in the Grand American handicap (1910) or the first 100 straight in GAH doubles championship (1967). That's huge change from the score of 89x100 made by Hall of Famer Mark Arie in the 1912 GAH doubles championship (the first 98 didn't come until 1937).

I don't wish to harm any of the groups I mentioned above but I do favor restoring our sport to the way it was designed. I think it would be more challenging, great scores would feel more rewarding and would overall be more beneficial to the life of the sport. I don't believe it is beneficial to the trap shooting game or shooters when Class D (88% average) shooters compete at their state shoots only to AA scores (196's) shooting off or winning the Class D championship. And this happens in other classes as well.

This issue has been debated over the last 100 years and neither side truely knows what is best for our sport. But I repeat, nobody picks a side to bring harm to the sport.

 

Special tip of the hat for that post HistoryBuff.

Harder targets will only cause today's class A shooters to shoot B scores, today's class B shooters to shoot class C scores, today's class D shooters to shoot worse......or something to that effect. It amazes me there are people of mediocre skill who think harder targets for everyone will make better scores for them and those with greater skill have lower scores enabling the mediocre people to win more. Really weird logic.

 

AZCO

I think you are misreading HB's post.

 

No I don't think so, he said "harder targets will not solve the problem." A thought shared by most.

 

AZCO

HB spend a lot of thought on his post. Read the rest.

I don't wish to harm any of the groups I mentioned above but I do favor restoring our sport to the way it was designed. I think it would be more challenging, great scores would feel more rewarding and would overall be more beneficial to the life of the sport.

AZCO

Could you explain when the vote was taken? Who took the vote? Was it taken in your state of CO? How many members participate in your state? Did you take the vote at a state shoot? I did not think you attend your state shoot. Curious.

 

You misunderstand FG.

I too favor more challenging targets, but just like HB said, "it will not solve the problem."

Shooters who shoot low scores will continue to shoot low scores or lower. Great shooters will continue to shoot winning scores.

You cannot make the targets more difficult in the hope of making Class D shooters into Class A shooters and Class A shooters into Class D shooters. If you could, what would be the point?

If everyone shot a 98 in a handicap, the entire event would have to be shot again in a shoot off.

As I have already explained over and over, clubs have the option RIGHT NOW to make the targets harder, but are choosing the easier settings. Exercise that option and see what happens.

 

Ollie: What you don't realize is, He is exactly how you are with Trapshooting, you quit, you were a former gun club Mgr
to boot, stop and look in the Mirror Ollie. You are a fence sitter never committed to Competetive Target Settings.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Doctor, all clubs have the ability to make competitive target changes, right now, but are choosing not to. Talk to your club manager.


Ollie, if you were running a club today, right now and one person out of 200 shooters at an event you were holding, told you he wanted the more difficult target settings as provided in the rules, would you do what he asked and set all machines as requested?