When is too late?

Real story

The person on position 4 shoots and nicks a target. Scorer yells loss. The person on 1 yells that he hit the target. Another shooter agrees. The box has both a circle and a slash. His score is written as a 25.

At the end all 5 shooters check their scores. The score is still a 25. The shooter thinks he has a 98. The next morning he sees his score has been posted as a 97. He complains with shoot management and they pull the score sheet. Written below the bird in question is the word "lost". The 25 is still on the sheet but his score is a 97.

Management tells him too late. The scores have been posted.

I will not tell you what shoot. That is not the point.

 

VII. A. 2

2. The referee/scorer shall keep an accurate record of each score of each contestant. If he/she rules “DEAD” or “LOST,” the referee/scorer shall promptly mark / or X for “DEAD” and 0 for “LOST” on the score sheet. Any target scored other than clearly with /, X or 0, or which appears to be scored, with both an X and 0, shall be “LOST”, unless the word “DEAD” is clearly printed beside it. The scores of the competition shall be official and govern all awards and records of the competition.

 

jhunts made that clear.

 

I suppose I could address the thread title.

"When is too late?"

VII. A. 12

12. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results of any shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should be recorded. In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post or in the case of his/her last post before leaving the trap. If the shooter fails to have the score corrected, the recorded score(s) shall remain unchanged and no valid protest will be entertained.

 

To me the circle with a slash through it confirms dead target, LOST was NOT WRITTEN, nor was dead it is a corrected score the shooter gets the benefit, a totalm of 25 was recorded on the sheet verifying scorer meant DEAD TARGET, and scored as such. Was / were all scorers properly briefed before taking Score Position?

Score sheet left the line as a 25/ and a 25 it is. Cannot be changed in CLUB IN HOUSE

GB.....................................DLS

 

Gary -

You would be 100 percent wrong. The rule was quoted above, what part of it isn't clear? Keep in mind it's the rule as written, not how you think it should be.

How can you assume a circle and slash means dead? What if the scorer scored it as dead, then the shooter spoke up and said it was lost. That would result in a circle and slash, but is the exact opposite of the original scenario - yet the scoresheet would look exactly the same. That's why the rule is in place that you have to write "dead" to clarify any incorrect markings.

I'd also like to see some reference to a rule that states that the scoresheet indicating "25" means it's a 25. It can be changed in the clubhouse, one of the things they do is double-check the count. It's very easy for a scorekeeper to make an mistake and write an incorrect number. It happened multiple times over five days at the Illinois State Shoot to my squad.

Scott

 

Scott, You are correct. At the spring grand I missed 2 targets on the first field and only one after that. Before walking off of the last field I checked the score sheets. Walla/// I found a half circle on one of my last targets on the first field. I went in and ask the score checker how he scored my hdk. He said 97, I said get the squad sheet I must show you something. I pointed out the squiggly mark, He said Shit Roger, you used to check sheets at Phoenix T & S. We must mark that as a loss. I agreed. Cost me much money and a win, but the right decision was made. Roger C.

 

The scorekeepers are supposed to or should be trained and know they have to make it clear if the target was hit or missed on all score sheets ... This can cost people a lot of money in some instances ... We used to have training sessions to make sure they knew what to, when to , how to mark the score sheets and even then we had some people that just could not grasp the importance and concept as Roger stated above how the results can influence the out come ... This is not rocket science (THANK GOD) but none the less you would think it was at times ... 5 targets at each post x's 5 equals 25 not 26 like I have seen a few mark also ...
Roger I wonder sometimes how we ever walked away with any degree of sanity left, well me any way, you I'm not to sure of ... lol .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Score people should be superior to those of years ago since all they have to do is watch the target.
Sadly, it's not always so. Other distractions, like cell phones distract, plus many times the scorers chair is back around the 27 yd. line. (my pet peev).
I have called broken targets for people only to get looks that could kill.

Regards.....Gerald

 

So if the scorer doesn't call lost on a missed target but marks it lost should not the score sheet reflect a Dead target

 

while the rules require the score keeper to call "lost" when a target is missed, I am not aware of any rule that awards a lost target to the shooter if the score keeper fails to call a lost target.

 

What it boils down to is that the only thing that really matters is the scorer's marks for each individual target. The scorer's total saying the score was, say "25," is technically meaningless. Your score depends on what each of those individual boxes show. If a 25 is shown on the sheet as the total, but the number of properly marked dead targets only equals 23, shoot management will change your score to a 23. If there is any confusion or odd markings, make sure they write "DEAD" if that is what it was. Otherwise its lost. Nothing else matters. No need for initials either, as many seem to believe for some reason.

 

5 targets at each post x 5 posts= 25 total not 26 like I have seen many times ... Must be the new math ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

A couple of quick questions.

How many targets per post must be shot at?

A: A shooter is required to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post (5 or 10 as specified by shoot management).

What happens if a scorer fails to move the squad at the required time and an excess (more than 5 or 10) number of targets are shot at?

A: any targets shot after failure to move at the proper time shall be scored.

What happens to excess targets?

A: then the excess targets of the sub-event will not be scored.

S0, if I shoot more (more than 5 or 10 because of scorer error) targets on a post they shall be scored and I am required to shoot the requisite number of 5 or 10 targets from a post. In the end I would have a number of targets scored of more than 25, which are the excess targets that will not be scored?

 

There are no excess targets. If the lead off man shoots a sixth target the no. 2 man starts the next post the extra target is scored on the next post. I f the lead off man shoots a six target on the last post it is not counted at all. Roger C.

 

Roger, how can a target be scored for the next post if it was shot on the previous post. It is a requisite to shoot (and score those shots) 5 or 10 from every post, not just score 5 or 10 on every post.

I assume you mean the (in your scenario) lead off guy only shoots at 4 targets from the second post, correct?

 

Correct. That is the way it works. Roger C.

 

How is that possible if a contestant is suppose to shoot 5 from each post? Is there a rule that says a target shot from one post is to be scored on the next post? What is different about a excess of the first post and excess of the last post, aren't they both excess? One being the sub-event and the other the post. Do you know why in the rules it states 5 or 10 must be shot on each post, yet the way it works is to shoot 4?

 

This would only apply to the leadoff shooter. If any other post shoots an extra bird first it is considered shooting out of turn and doesn't count.

If you are lead off and don't like post five, shoot six on four and four on five. Just kidding but that's the way it works

Now, the solution to this is training the scorers to keep the button on the board, not hanging off the side. Our scorers are trained to shut off the speakers as soon as the last man shoots therefore eliminating the extra shots problem.

 

Your the second poster says that is how it works. Shouldn't how it works be within the rules? If it is excess, whether on a post, sub-event or event, shouldn't it be excess and not count.

Yes, one solution is to train scorers better, but anyone can make a mistake. I will ask again, if a rule states that shooters must shoot 5 or 10 from each post, how is it possible to be within the rules to shoot 4 on a post because a contestant shot 6 from the previous post? Neither of which is 5 or 10.

 

In my opinion, if you shoot more than five at a post, the extras should not count, but they didn't ask me when they wrote the rule. Could we get the Mississippi shooters to change this for us?

 

It was devised in such a way to eliminate or at least limit mistakes, the scorer has 4 fingers (usually) and one thumb (usually also) , (if they do not have 4 fingers and 1 thumb they can be loaders or squad hustlers) so once all of the shooters have shot all 4 fingers and the thumb , turn off the button (should be the opposite way that its been up till now ) and announce a move, rotate, change, or what ever their little heart desires ... Once all of the shooters have made the move, rotated, changed or what ever flip the button and do it all over again ... I shoot out of the box on my belt and once that layer of shells is gone or two layers if 10 per post I figure its time to move, change, rotate, or what ever their little heart desirers , repeat until the lead off shooter has shot 100 shells which should be the same amount in targets (all of the little boxes should be marked with an X or an O ) and they call out finished, done, out, complete, or anything their little heart desires to let the contestants know they are done ... If the shooter wants to stay on the same post do not pay any attention to them until they do what you (the scorer) has commanded them to do, no more problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It is admirable that jhunts points out all the contradictions in the "rule-book" .... keep in mind that everything "added" that makes the "rules" garbage, was needed to keep some on top. "Score-sheet errors" are not given the same "treatment" for all entrants. If your "error" happens to be the "same" as the anointed one's, the "conflicting rule" can be separated to go against you, and for them.

There never was, or never will be, a need for the mulligans created by rule modifications for the "average shooter". Only those who could have a perfect score damaged by an "error", have the need to have an uncontested mulligan.

The "rule book" is in dire need of a rewrite .... but, then the anointed ones could be contested for present practices .... A 100x100, 200x200, or 400x400 .... is much, much, harder than a 100x1??, 200x2??, or 400x4?? ....

The difference between Hero and Zero .... is more of who, than what ....

 

Truly, that is where the excess reside, I agree those extras should not count. As well as, if you only shoot 4 from a post it is not a completed event.

As long as the contestant shot the required amount of targets from each post, those 100 shells would create 100 scoring marks where required, I would think.

 

Jhunts, I believe the conflicting rule you are pointing out came about after a rule change many years ago after a issue during a shoot off at the grand. I believe someone went from post 4 to post 1, skipping 5.

In fact, the rule starts out ... Inadvertently skipped posts. So I guess you may shoot 4 or 6 and be OK (if shooting 5 per post), just as long as you don't skip the entire post.

Your statement is partly correct. If any shooter shoots out of turn, theirs, and subsequent targets shot are considered "no targets". However, if the score keeper fails to call move and extra targets are shot on a post, be it be 1 or 5 (meaning all shooters shot 1) they would all count. There is nothing in that rule that limits it to the shooter starting on post 1.

 

But the specific rule does not say, "you may shoot 4 or 6", it says, "A shooter is required to shoot the requisite number of targets from each post"

As the rule regards only inadvertent skipping, is purposeful skipping legal? Why not skipping a post in general like, "when a contestant skips a post" or maybe just write it like in years past. Combine two rules into one.

Something like, Contestants must shoot the requisite number of targets from each of the 5 posts.

That is clear enough, if someone shoots additional targets from any post it does not count, that would include 1 extra or skipping a post. If caught skipping, if any additional targets were shot on a repeat post would not count and the contestant would have to complete the event shooting 5 from the skipped post. Seems simple, I guess not.

Maybe your saying the required number is only required when skipping posts.

The rule change came between 2001 and 2003 as 2001 does not mention the inadvertent skipped post and 2003 does. Are you saying there was an issue with someone skipping a post that could not be figured out with the rules in place at the time? Someone argued because there was not wording of you must shoot 5 targets per post? If only the rules of 1934 could have been kept as to this.




Or maybe 1919 under "no target"

Of course I think it would be easy to conclude a contestant shooting in order a sixth target from a post is not in order. Once five targets have been shot on a post, that is it, the next sequenced shot for that contestant would be the next post.

I guess the rules today are there to give guidance for a social event and not a sporting event.

 

The rule s writen the way it is. If the shooter misses the 6 target on a post, he should not get a mulligan, it is a lost target. if he hit the extra it is scored dead. Not to hard to understand. It would be pretty hard for anyone but the lead off man to shoot the extra target. Roger C.

 

The rules are conflicting but that seems to be one interpretation. You'd have to ask the guys that wrote the rule if they meant for it to be applied all the time or just on a skipped post.

As far as the change goes I just recall thinking 'this new rule is not consistent with the current rule regarding extra shots on a post.'

 

Your right Roger it is, or shouldn't be hard to understand. A target more than required is/should be a "no target." If a 6th target shot at and lost should remain, why not a sub-event last target if it was the 26th. A post within a sub-event is just a sub, sub-event. Why not, if a contestant shoots more than 25 just carry over the result to the next sub-event like it was the next post.

I am sure there has been occasion where more than just the leader shot additional targets.

A sixth target at a post is not within order (more than the requisite is excess), it is out of order and should not count. You cannot score an event that should not happen, or shouldn't anyway.

Nor should a shooter shoot 6 targets on post 4 and 4 targets on post 5 or what ever situation arises. Every shooter should shoot the same amount of targets from every post.

I am just saying you can't or shouldn't have rules that state you must shoot 5 or 10 from each post, and then tell us that an additional target shot on a post is to be scored without saying how to score it. It is an additional target, where if scored, leads to post where the contestant does not fire at the requisite number of targets. That is the game correct, every contestant shoots at 5 or 10 targets from each post, not 6, 4, 11 or 9. Once you shoot 5 or 10 that is it or should be. It is kind of like a buzzer for the end of a period, no scoring should be done, especially given that it is the score keepers responsibility, no need to reward or punish a contestant for an additional target that was thrown.

Why would a respected institution have conflicting rules within the same section. It is possible to have both occurrences at the same time. There is conflictions all through this rule book, because new leaders just keep adding things until just about anything is possible as it comes down to interpretation at the time it happened.

Of course we have all seen even this year what just a few people wanting a seemingly simple rule change can cause. I am speaking of the changes to the FTF rule, which should have never been a separate set of rules to begin with, at least to me.

Maybe, because it isn't consistent.

 

It should also say .... each "post" has to be shot in the correct order to be scored.

Someone could go from post 4 to 1, shoot the correct number from that post, then go back to 5 and shoot the correct number, and have "the requisite number of targets from each of the 5 posts".

 

Extra targets on a post are not considered shot out of turn. If the whole squad shoots extra targets on a post they are scored as shot on the next post and posted as dead or lost. Any targets shot after the 25 required are no targets regardless of dead or lost. There are no variations of this for any reason. NO ONE GETS MULLIGANS IN THIS GAME. Roger C.

 

Well, I agree with Jhunts on this. IMO, the game is 5 shots from each of 5 posts. If you shoot 6 from a post it should be a no event and you should be forced to move and shoot the required 5 from the correct post. We get a MULLIGAN when we shoot out-of-turn, so that no mulligans point is groundless. Why let me try to sneak a 6th shot in on my favorite post and possibly avoid one on my least favorite?

I really wonder where the thought for this came from? It makes no sense to me. And don't give me the "you shot at it and missed, so it is lost" BS, since if I miss shooting out of turn it is not counted.

 

The rules states all targets shot out of turn must be reshot. If you miss it on the rerun it is scored as lost even if you hit the out of turn target. When followed this rule works, when shooters try to install their own rules they never work. You ere allowed to read and understand the rules. Roger C.

 

No issue with reading or understanding the rule, just pointing out the rule for 6 shots makes no sense, conflicts with the treatment for shooting out-of-turn for no discernible reason, and basically is just a bad rule IMO.

I can't think of 1 good reason for it????

 

I still believe the scorer should turn the mic's off when the fifth shooter fires his fifth shot on station. Not to turn them back on until each shooter moves to their next station and everyone is ready. When ever I score a squad, I always mark the sheet above the fifth target per station to remind me to call dead end or lost end as the case may be for the first shooter and to remind me to call change when the fifth shooter fires their last shot per station. Works for us and I've never got a complaint for using the system!

 

I might go a little deep here but...

A sequenced shot in turn, but after the requisite number of shots for that post, is not in order. There is not (should not be) a chance for a dead or loss bird after completion of the post, sub-event or event, it is complete. It is the responsibility of the scorer to not allow it. In order, would be the next required shot which would be the next post. Why punish or reward a contestant with a target that should not have been thrown, when it is no contestants turn.

Roger, where in the rules does it allow for less the 5 shots to be taken per post? Where in the rules does it allow for a shot taken from post A to be scored as part of post B?

Here is a "no target" rule.

4. When a contestant shoots out of turn. All contestants must shoot in regular order or sequence according to his or her position in the squad. A contestant who does not shoot in regular order is “out of turn” and the results are not scored.

As such, an extra target shot at a completed post, is not in regular order (as the post was completed, in order would be a shot from the next post) and is out of turn.

So there are at least 3 rules that counter act the additional target in a post rule.

VII. A. 5 Should more targets be fired in a sub-event than the event calls for, then the excess targets of the sub-event will not be scored.

If you shoot more than 5 on a post and you must shoot 5 per post the excess is obviously that extra target shot on the post that 6 were scored.

VII. A. 8 talks about the need or requisite targets that must be shot per post, 5 or 10.

VII. A. 10 talks about the final target of a post. "until the squad member who is last has fired his/her final shot of the current post’s specified number of targets." What are the specified number of targets, 5 or 10.

VII. A. 12 talk about the properly marking of scores. Since it apparently is a requirement to shoot 5 or 10 from each post, wouldn't it be proper to only score shot taken from a post where the shots for that post are scored, and not the next post scoring boxes.

VII. D. 4. "When a contestant shoots out of turn. All contestants must shoot in regular order or sequence according to his or her position in the squad. A contestant who does not shoot in regular order is “out of turn” and the results are not scored."

Here is a couple excerpts for the ATA TRAP LINE MANUAL:

- There are 5 firing positions, numbered 1 to 5, left to right, spaced about 3 yards apart. Each shooter shoots 5 shots from each firing position in a round, or sub-event of trap for a total of 25 shots.

- Next are 25 numbered columns to record the result of each shot or doubles pair. The 25 columns are grouped into five (5) columns by a heavy vertical line to indicate the five (5) targets shot from each trap position in the sub-event.

- The number of targets a shooter shoots at each trap position depends on whether the sub-event is a 25 or 50 target sub-event. Each squad member shoots at 5 or 10 targets in singles and handicap and five (5) pairs of targets in doubles at a trap position before moving to the next position.

- The highest possible score in a sub-event for doubles is 50. This is 10 targets (5 pairs) shot at each of the five (5) positions in a trap. The highest possible score in a 25-target sub-event for singles and handicap is 25. This is five (5) shots at each of the five (5) positions in a trap. The possible score for a 50-target sub-event is 50, with ten shots at each of the five positions.

Nowhere in the Trap Line Training manual does it train scorers to score anything other than 5 or 10 shots on a post.

I will end with, a sixth shot from a post is not "regular order" and is a "no target." It cannot be both not scored and scored, and as a majority of the rules and training say there are not more and not less than 5 or 10 targets per post, the additional target should not be scored, though there is a rule that says to, it does not give guidance as to how.

 

JHUNTS,

There are many things more important than sequence of targets shot. If they are not corrected soon there will most likely be no targets shot to argue about. I only explained how the error was handled for many years. If there is no rule then, I must assume the ATA does not consider it important . Roger C.