IDNR & Grand permission - Response from the State of Illinois

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by merlo, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. merlo

    merlo Mega Poster Forum Reporter

    There has been a lot of speculation about whether the ATA will have their flagship shoot in Sparta in August.

    I have attached a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and response.


    FOIA RESPONSE-No Authorization for 2021 GAH.jpg
    What does the above mean?

    Thanks to my pals in the trenches.
    I report. You decide.

    merlo out
     
    dr.longshot, wpt, paBOB and 1 other person like this.
  2. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

    Looks to me like Brad M, Gibson and the boys of EC got a little bit in front of the truth, or the state of Illinois is covering something up. Imagine that.
     
    dr.longshot, wpt and Brad M like this.
  3. MShooter

    MShooter Member

    Where is the rebuttal? Brad M....

    It looks real to me.
     
  4. butterly

    butterly Mega Poster

    Just guessing. The ATA has decided it is a go until Illinois says it is a no go.
     
    wpt and paBOB like this.
  5. Dobyns

    Dobyns Active Member

    The requestor asked for all communications. IDNR FOIA officer John Hosteny replied saying an ESI search did not find any e-mails pertaining to the request, so the request was denied.

    If I was the requestor, I would file a Request of Review with the PAC and tell them I asked for and want all communications which includes both non-electronic and electronic communications. It would not be unreasonable for these communications to have been sent via certified mail.
     
    paBOB likes this.
  6. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Forum Leader Founding Member

    The ATA says it has authorization . . . . the IDNR FOIA office can't find any authorization.

    Perhaps one of our State or Provincial ATA Delegates or their Alternates might be inquisitive enough to ask for the letter authorizing the 2021 Grand American tournament at the World Shooting and Recreational Complex (WSRC).


    I certainly won't hold my breath for that.

    HB
     
    paBOB, wpt and BRAD DYSINGER like this.
  7. merlo

    merlo Mega Poster Forum Reporter

    Please stay tuned. There will be more.
    I report. You decide.
    merlo out
     
    paBOB and wpt like this.
  8. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

    You better not hold your breath HB.

    The officials of the ATA aren't going to do any more than be figure heads, and we all know that.

    Why would they work ?

    Not for the members, that's for sure.
     
    paBOB, wpt and BRAD DYSINGER like this.
  9. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie State HOF Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

    If they are telling shooters they have authorization,the shooters make unchangable plans and they do not have the authorization, THAT IS GIONG TO HURT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT STILL SUPPORT THEM AND THIER DUMB DECISIONS. The more lies they tell, the harder it will be to back out of them. Roger C.
     
    paBOB likes this.
  10. Brad M

    Brad M Well-Known Member

    Maybe they didn’t use emails to notify the Ata? I honestly would of thought there would of been something in an email somewhere. Ill be the first to tell you don’t know how a foia works. Is it only paper and digital? What about phone calls? Decisions like this are well out of us wrench turners control. We do what we’re told.
     
  11. paBOB

    paBOB Active Member

    The Illinois State Shoot has a note that other dates may be used due to Covid. Also Gipson/ATA could be deriving their "authorized" from the fact that they have a lease.

    Whatever your state....your delegate should have the answer. It is their job!
     
    wpt likes this.
  12. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    I talked to a friend of mine who lives in Illinois, said one of the guys out at the club called the State Delegate and does not get an answer so he left a few messages for him to call back ... The Club is in Illinois and they do not know anything nor have they been told anything ... Exemplifies the way to not do business so they can scream when nobody shows up and renders support ... WPT ... ( YAC) ...

    To clarify : The Delegate obviously won't answer the phone or return phone calls ...
     
    Roger Coveleskie and paBOB like this.
  13. paBOB

    paBOB Active Member

    It is the Illinois State Delegate's job to know. Some of these delegates would be surprised to find out they are the Board of Directors.
     
    Roger Coveleskie and wpt like this.
  14. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Forum Leader Founding Member

    I thought the same thing. Since gipson is there anyway all he needed from the WSRC was a letter and they could have handed it to him over lunch.
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

    It was brought to my attention one of the recent ATA Presidents had no idea how to use e-mail.
     
    Pipe Layer and wpt like this.
  16. 25nout

    25nout Well-Known Member

    Perhaps this is in line with "ask permission after its done?"
     
  17. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    I have to believe that at this point in the game most of the shooters who are going to attend could careless if it is in Sparta, Lynn Creek, Tucson, Cardinal Center or any place in between, if they can make the plans to make the trip they are going to do it no mater where it is held (Yeah, for them ) ... The many who had Chapped ass's about the grand going to Illinois are long over it and now just sit back and watch as the comedy unfolds to see what other stupid moves happen to make sure there is a grand someplace, anyplace ... That is pretty much the situation the ATA was in prior to the move to Illinois when places that were available for the ATA to again be owners, not renters at the disposal of the owner (Land Lord) and take their chances and the relocation Wizards turned away and turned them down ... Illinois is known for graft so many would wonder who got what from who to make the facility in Illinois happen and have a renter standing by as Leases, MOU's agreements, and who knows what fell by the way side to avoid established due diligence, that was not cheap to obtain ... If not for the corruption, graft, political climate, anti gun sentiments, Politico's on the take nothing or very little would ever happen within the borders of the State of Illinois, other than that its not really that bad a place ... There will be a grand someplace, those of us that care or care less will have life go on at other places ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  18. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

    WPT....your insinuation that nobody cares is off the wall. I care. Anywhere but Ohio. Please Stay west of Indiana.
     
    Brad M likes this.
  19. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Well-Known Member

    Incredible odds that the ATA would not have any electronic communication about the grand during that period. Especially with a line drawn in the sand. Unless the line drawn in the sand was only known by us and not known by Illinois.
     
    BRAD DYSINGER and wpt like this.
  20. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    Smithy ,
    You are not in the majority, need proof look at attendance records ... Have a good time, shoot well, and have fun .... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  21. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    No "MOU" ?????

    Not worth anything ..... but ..... seems to make some 'feel good' .....
     
    BRAD DYSINGER and wpt like this.
  22. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader Founding Member Grudge Match Champion

    Aint no MOU, Ain't no Grand at Sparta, plain and simple. Look for Sparta Auction in the Illini-Papers

    GB....................................DLS
     
  23. Union Strong

    Union Strong Well-Known Member

    Doc...are you hearing chirping noises?
     
  24. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

    Although there are many who have 2 spaces reserved for camping at the Grand American in 2021, the list shows 848 reservations as of April 19, 2021.

    That being said, there are 848 trusting soles.

    I am not allowed to post the link for fear of getting BANNED, or I would have posted where I found this list..

    It's up to MERLO to get it if anyone is looking for the proof.
     
    HistoryBuff likes this.
  25. MShooter

    MShooter Member

    History Seeker

    The campers that had reservations last year were rolled over to this year. Much unlike the vendors that got nothing back.

    The sorry thing is some vendors are coming back for part two. Lol
     
  26. Brad M

    Brad M Well-Known Member

    I think good ol’ Merlo will have plenty of information to post shortly. He was in Springfield the other day, at the foia office. It takes a few days to process those.
     
    History Seeker likes this.
  27. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    Brad M.
    I guess it is just par for the course or a bassackwords way of doing business but if you know something why are you not broadcasting it, do they have a GAG order on you ..? I'm not sure why everything has to be a secret or researched and investigated before those that are, might, or would be interested get told what is in fact happening ... The BS kid games are nothing short of gross ignorance by any and all involved, while being expected and anticipated as time goes by based on who they are dealing with ... The DEAD LINE was 05/01/21 for the State to give answers, obviously the ATA does not have the power to even make them or expect the State to respond in a timely manner one way or the other ... (Renters remorse ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  28. Jim/Canton

    Jim/Canton Well-Known Member

    If the ATA cared about their vendors they would have reimbursed them. It was the ATA that chose a gun hate state.
     
    John Trap, Roger Coveleskie and wpt like this.
  29. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

    Members or anyone else for that matter sold have to rely on Brad M. for information. He is an employee apparently of the State, and not the HEAD of the ATA.

    So that being said, why are the Delegates, VPs or President giving the members information.

    Don't pick on Brad M., he probably has no more info that we do.

    Lousy info from your delegates is what you get, and it seems they all boycott this site.

    Have not seen any (that I know of) come up with information as of yet.
     
    BRAD DYSINGER likes this.
  30. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator Staff Member

    Your delegates read this. As part of admin I know of many and they are not boycotting. Some get their information here. I have talked to several.
     
    Ken Cerney likes this.
  31. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member


    To clear up a point, I was not in placing blame on Brad M. merely pointing out if he knows something and he is NOT under a GAG order it is a poor way of doing business .... I stand by that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Ken Cerney and BRAD DYSINGER like this.
  32. Brad M

    Brad M Well-Known Member

    I’ve recently found out, There was an official correspondence on the Grand and Open taking place. While I am not privy to the document as I am not on it, and it’s not in my food chain like I’ve said before, I’m not very important, it does exist. It’s nothing flashy and fancy. I’m sure it will get posted when Merlo gets it this go around. Let’s hope it dispels some of the rumors. Honestly there’s always a clause, epidemic, act of God or a plethora of things that could stop the event from happening no guarantee(IL) is iron clad.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2021
  33. Jim/Canton

    Jim/Canton Well-Known Member

    Not in Ohio. The Governor can’t stop us. The virus didn’t stop us. You Brad M, live in the gun hate! The only thing guaranteed there is the vendors could get ripped off again.

    Ohio had their big shoots last year. Illinois sat on the sidelines. Illinois couldn’t get permission to use their guns. Who saw that coming?

    The grand didn’t go to Illinois because of an act of God. It was an act of the State of Illinois.
     
    wpt and John Trap like this.
  34. MShooter

    MShooter Member

    Bull Shit. I can hear those in the office talking. “Let’s run this by the custodian first.”
    Troll
     
    Roger Coveleskie and wpt like this.
  35. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Forum Leader Founding Member

    Again, I want to state I appreciate Brad M.'s contribution to our great sport. I think he's doing the best he can with the cards dealt to him.

    I was once in his position. I was told to follow the directions of leadership or consider resigning. I chose to resign. My integrity trumped my cherished position. I have no regrets.

    I agree with History Seeker that it is our elected Delegates who bear the responsibility for the success or failure of our sport. The Executive Committee could not make the final decisions unless the Delegates permitted it. They need to start paying attention to the decisions and acting like Board of Directors instead of lemmings. They are asleep. Choosing instead the position that "I just want to shoot." Then, you should not have taken the job. The position would have been better off being empty, for that is what it is in actuality.

    I yield to an old 1933 article I've always admired that says it all:

    1933, Pick Best Person, S. R., 15APR1933p269.jpg
    If your Delegate is not questioning the actions by the 5 people they have placed in charge, vote them the hell out because they are do nothings for our sport, regardless of how well they shoot, how nice of a person they are or how much influence they have.

    Our sport need leaders as well as check and balances and today, we've arrived to a place where we have neither.

    We've gone from the days of men with character to . . . . characters who proport to be men.

    Do I dare mention how George S. McCarty, our 2nd ATA President gave about 6 months of his life away from family, accepting nor expecting no payment, to oversee the purchase and construction of the Vandalia home grounds back in 1923-1924? And who continued to work tirelessly to sell life memberships to help fund it all.

    We had leaders back then.

    We should all be ashamed that we've let the oversight of our sport get so far out of hand.

    However, I could be wrong. They now have a ton of money but have yet to offer a plan, nor has any Delegate asked, on what they hope to spend it on.

    Perhaps one brave Delegate might pose this question to the E. C.?

    Nope, I won't hold my breath for that one either.

    Wake up Delegates . . . . you are the leadership . . . . you only granted the Executive Committee the power to make decisions for the entire year between each Grand American annual meeting. That doesn't mean the E. C. doesn't have to seek your advise or consent for their decisions. If they don't keep you informed, rescind that authorization you entrusted to them.

    But, your apathetic stance has actually been harmful to our association. You don't believe me? May I refer you to every ATA Average Book all the way back to the earliest time (1981) when we members were first provided information on the number members in the ATA, total targets registered by the ATA, number of annual tournaments and the number of gun clubs affiliated. It's in the first few pages entitled "THE AMATEUR TRAPSHOOTING ASSOCIATION."

    They have all diminished and continue to trend downward.

    Yes, I know nothing will change. But at least I offered some good advise and I certainly feel better for doing it.

    Enjoy Our History !

    I shouldn't claim any responsibility for the above statements. Woodford Reserve made me say it.

    But, I always stand behind all of my statements. Thanks for listening.

    HB
     
  36. butterly

    butterly Mega Poster

    History Buff

    I disagree in part with a sentence.
    The ATA makes up the Board of Directors. They can call a properly called meeting at any time.
     
    Roger Coveleskie likes this.
  37. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    Why the need to "find out", if you are a paid ATA member ????? That membership should make you "privy to the document" .....

    Why should "Merlo" have to post something you should share with other forum and ATA members ?????

    What "rumors" are you referring to ?????

    A State owned boondoggle and a "charirty" should have no secrets ..... so why post like they do ?????
     
    SES, wpt, Ken Cerney and 1 other person like this.
  38. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

    Kenny you and I have had this conversation in private many times. I'm glad you went on the record. You will now feel better even though nothing will come of your rant. As you well know I have been sounding this same alarm for 20 years and while it makes me personally "feel" good when someone associated with the game like you were "comes out of the closet" so to speak I have come to the all to true realization that it won't matter to the sport we love. ATA trap shooting today is made up of self serving, wannabee, know-it-all', do nothing delegates and shooters.

    This had been true for at least the last 40 years, very few "men" actually had power in the ATA but before 1981 the one's in charge actually had the best interest of the sport in their hearts for the most part.

    I tell you what gripes my ass, and I'll go on the record right here, is that men I shot with, All American HOF members that are now way too old to compete, tell me in private what they won't say in public. They know who they are, and I wonder what in the hell at 70+ years old are they afraid of. The EC sucks, are crooks and liars, maybe lazy but definitely worthless. Just go ahead and say it on the record.

    Kenny once again I'm happy for you, Freedom of Speech is more important today than at anytime in our life times. You know that none of the "boys of ATA" will pay any attention but they can't say we didn't worn them.
     
  39. Brad M

    Brad M Well-Known Member

    It’s not my document, I don’t have a copy. If I filed a foia then I would release it. I have been told the grand will be in Sparta. That’s good enough for me. User1 you could care less what I say it won’t change your opinion.
    The rumors that keep popping up threads stating that the grand will not be in Sparta.

    I agree, but a email conversation with very simple wording will not make you happy User1.
     
  40. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

    IF the Delegates aren't boycotting this site, then why in the Hell aren't they coming on here with some REAL information ???

    All seem to have speculations, Merlo tells us to stay tuned for more, but where are the Delegates that are supposed to be members representatives, and should be thee ones telling us?

    That is all I meant by Boycott.

    All this BS could and would be put to rest IF just one of these elected officials would come on THIS SITE and tell us something.

    Am I just a little peed off ?

    Yep !
     
    BRAD DYSINGER likes this.
  41. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    You seem to be a very special kind of stupid shill ..... so, try to read slow enough to get it .....

    Do you pay 'State tax' in the State of corruption where you claim to work, and owns the boondoggle ?????

    Are you a paid ATA member 'in good standing' ?????

    If yes and yes then you have not one, but two, reasons to NOT NEED A "FOIA" .....

    As far as "rumors", you win ..... you post propaganda backed by nothing but bull-shit ..... So, don't get your feeling hurt when you are called on the bull-shit .....
     
  42. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

    Have you contacted your delegate? I have.
     
  43. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    When I was a little kid, I was always taught and told "Better peed off, than peed on " ... The Delegates obviously do not see the importance of notifying the Membership of the proceedings or lack of so this is what happens ... The New and Improved ATA, see nothing, tell nothing, know nothing and people wonder why they cannot draw a crowd besides the location ... The line for the new gun and 20 K starts on the left ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Flyersarebest likes this.
  44. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Forum Leader Founding Member

    A fair disagreement butterly. I should have chosen better words to express more clearly my statement. My point was that it is the Board of Directors (Delegates) who hold the power of the actions of the Association. This group in effect constitutes the actual governance of the ATA. The Constitution and By-Laws grant the Executive Committee the obligation to carry out the actions formulated by the BOD.

    It is correct that the BOD can hold properly called meetings at any time. Sadly, that option has rarely been exercised since the ATA was organized.

    I'll just site this March 27, 1926 Sportsmen's Review article that speaks clearly to the intent of my statement.


    Delegates Have Power, S.R., 27MAR1926, p.339.jpg

    FROM 2019 BY-LAWS
    2019-01 - Copy.jpg
     
    wpt, Just Joe, Flyersarebest and 2 others like this.
  45. Seitz9010

    Seitz9010 Mega Poster

    Good call Dobyns. Curious that the email was missed by the WSRC Director. And the email contains mandated masking.

    Jmho. Merlo is doing the delegates job.
     
  46. Dobyns

    Dobyns Active Member

    Most of the delegates do not understand or choose to ignore what the responsibilities and duties are.
     
    wpt and harryone like this.
  47. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Forum Leader Founding Member

    Go with the flow
    Don’t ask any questions
    Sit down and shut up
     
  48. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Forum Leader Founding Member

    And wait your turn for the new Gun and 20K President check ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Flyersarebest and BRAD DYSINGER like this.