FFL or no FFL

When buying or selling a trap gun some ffl will take guns from non ffl holders some will not. Here in Calif. I can sell a long gun with out using an ffl,but some dealers will not except it. anyone know how this works.

 

I had my own FFL from 1989 to 2009. I decided not to renew when the partners in our store moved . The Federal regulations state that only the receiving person needs a FFL. Some dealers make up their own rules. Probably due to some lawyer telling them that is what they should do just in case there is a "problem".

I live in PA. I can sell a long gun to someone in PA without going through a FFL handguns are FFL to FFL. I don't know if CA has their own rules about people selling long guns person to person within the state but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Kalifornia

FYI as far as CA and selling to someone in that state if from another state. If someone from another state wants to sell to a CA resident and they themselves have a FFL they must first get a number, sort of a "transaction" number, from CA before they can sell and ship it.

If the person is a "non licensee" they DO NOT NEED TO GET THAT NUMBER. As long as they send their info and a copy of their drivers license, either before they ship or in the box, they are good to go.

That 1100 Trap I just sold here is the 89th firearm I have sold in the last 18 months. Six have gone to CA without a problem . Three of them took a little longer because the buyer had to find a different FFL that knew the law and would accept from a non licensee after their local guy said I needed a FFL on my end.

 

The ATF makes their own rules. The fact you sold 89 firearms within an 18 month period would require you to have an FFL if questioned by multiple ATF agents. That said, rules are seldom enforced unless multiple handguns are involved and any were used in a crime. Long guns are not high on their list of firearm traces.

 

I'm selling these from my personal collection. I don't need a license to sell them. Since you have a license yourself you know that there are the firearms in your business" book" and firearms in your personal collection. I assume in todays world dealers don't even have a book and everything is on the computer.

When the partnership folded we had only been in business for about 4 years. I moved my FFL address to my home. Acquired all the state and county sales tax licenses and and sold guns from my house for the next 16 years. You know, Kitchen Table dealer. 10% over cost plus shipping, tax, and instant check fees.

During those years I had my Beretta .25 stolen from my car. I reported it immediately to the local police department. When I called the ATF office in PGH they wanted to know two things.

Was it in my personal collection records or in my business book? And did I report it to my local police?
I answered personal collection and yes. They replied good enough and that was the end of the phone call.

As a side note, the theft occurred at my club when I didn't lock the car while I was there on a Thursday night shooting Trap. I had done it hundreds of times between 1977 when I joined and 1995 when the theft happened. I discovered it missing when I got home and went to take it in the house.

When I closed my business and the agent came to my house to inspect my records she asked the same questions when I told her about the stolen pistol.
She said that as long as it was in my personal collection she didn't have to do anything else. She didn't even ask to see my personal collection book.

I had over three hundred 4473 forms and after randomly looking through them she was more concerned with the 3 forms that had the words Pittsburgh or Pennsylvania abbreviated. I had to contact the buyers and have them fill out a new 4473 with the words spelled out. These went to the ATF office in WV along with all the other 4473's when I officially closed down.

BTW, Even though I told them about six times since 2009 that I had relinquished my license and was no longer in business, PA still sends me an E-tides email about every two years asking me about any sales I had completed for the previous year. Gotta love how efficient PA is.

 

One thing you'll learn about ATF agents is each one is different and interpret law differently. Yes, I had an agent question me about spelling Pennsylvania many years ago and I told her I'm not running a spelling bee and I doubt some of my buyers can even spell it-so much for that. Some have asked me if I would help them with records on guns firing 7.62/39 rounds while others never cared. I showed the last agent around 125 boxes of complete miscellaneous firearms and lower receivers waiting to be transferred to ONE buyer and she shrugged her shoulders. One in particular said she believed anyone selling more than a dozen firearms in one year must have a license. Bottom line-you pays you money and you takes you chances!

 

Legally, it's a pretty fuzzy area. IIRC, the key words are "in the business" and the key question was whether there was a profit motive...all of which would probably be pretty difficult to prove in court except in pretty egregious cases. IIRC, BATFE's FAQ book (or maybe it was on their online FAQ) said that if there was a profit motive, even the sale of one firearm could constitute being "in the business," but conversely, a private citizen selling multiple items from their collection would not necessarily be in the business. Even murkier, the mere fact that someone makes money on a deal isn't definitive...folks aren't forced to sell below market rate just because they lucked into a good deal or bought a gun whose value increased over time.

I would say if you buy several guns of an identical type, with no identifiable collectible value, and never fire them, and then turn around and sell them as new within a relatively short period for a profit, you'd probably want to think *very* carefully on how to articulate that your transactions were merely those of a collector/enthusiast and not someone in the business of selling firearms...just in case someone from BATFE ever asks.