PITA Shoot at the Cardinal Center

I have heard a lot about the PITA organization. The management seems to be top notch. I for one would like to see a date for a PITA shoot.

As long as we are shooting targets we are happy right!

 

Give them a call they are a very helpful bunch.

 

Yep

 

Brad Dysinger has the contact information for Sue Brewer, the executive secretary of the PITA. The PITA would be more than happy to assist the CC in throwing PITA targets if asked to do so. A single phone call would set the ball rolling.... The contact information for the PITA is:

Pacific International Trapshooting Association
Sue Brewer, Secretary sue@shootpita.com
P.O. Box 770
Lebanon, Oregon 97355
Phone: (541) 258-8766

 

Is the management of CC wanting to throw PITA targets or is this wishful thinking of the Anti-ATA crowd?

 

The club can throw both ATA and PITA all in the same day by cross registering if the club allows it ... No problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Get the magnums too. Makes the shoot attendance a lot better.

 

The ATA clubs here should have magnums. It would greatly increase parciptiation. Unless of course no shooters are interested in make a little cash.

The program from the Hoppe Shoot in Misoula MT is another good one.

 

What "hole" and "angle" would a PITA target be?

 

WPT, With all due respect my question wasn't if they could it was "who" wants to throw PITA targets.

 

They get $10,000 in the magnums. Not for the new age shooter. I think they are W & L.

 

I don't think it's either one..... I think it was just a simple question. Where, in the question, was there anything anti-ATA mentioned? Where was there any indication of the CC management being questioned? Seemed like a pretty straight forward question by family guy, and a very accurate statement: "As long as we are shooting targets we are happy right! " Seems like you, Leonidas, have a very narrow, and limited, ability to simply take things at face value for just what they are........ The very basics of our sport is to keep targets in the air for us to shoot, is it not? Regardless of which organization is throwing them, that's what keeps us coming back. We all have a choice as to which targets we want to shoot, and where. I think family guys post was pretty neutral, but, you seem to be able to put your own spin on it.... Just sayin', ya know??

 

Leonidas,
Only they (the clubs) would know for sure and why not ..? Targets are targets, rules pretty much the same (slight variation), cost factor no big deal, so why not ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Trap 2

"I don't think it was either one" ?


All I did was ask the question of who is wanting to throw the PITA targets. Here it is in another format.....Does the CC even know they are being involved in asking of PITA thrown target or is it some peoples wishful thinking.

As far as the Anti - ATA comment all you have to do is read posts and you will get the impression that is the sentiment of the majority of the posters on this site.

 

I think most posters on all shooting discussion sites would love to see both organizations do well. Because a few have an opinion on those responsible for allowing cheating in our sport certainly isn't bad mouthing ATA, just those allowing bad things to flourish. Pointing out mistakes made isn't wishing any organized sport to fail, rather the total opposite. That's why history is so important and we can learn from it, if not, we're bound to make those same mistakes over and over?

BTW, impressions aren't fact either.

HAP

 

The only things I am Anti about is Obama, the muslims wanting to take over this country, Illegals draining our social services and taking jobs away from Americans who need the work also and anyone who want to take America to its knees ... Obama and his vacations, lack of up holding the Constitution of the United States of America and people who can't seem to understand those things .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If the shooters in Ohio want to shoot PITA and the clubs are willing to throw the targets. It is all good.

 

I wouldn't care if they did, but it would probably be problematic since all the camp sites are rented under the assumption thier shoots will be ATA sanctioned.

 

Rosey,

That could be a problem unless there was advance warning so people can make other arrangements or sign up and shoot ... Can't change the game unless all agree ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If Ohio is ready for a change, PITA could be a breath of fresh air.

 

Can someone please explain to me WHY you would want a PITA shoot at the Cardinal Center. As i understand it, PITA and ATA rules are very similar. The quality of the shoot lies in the facility management...not the promoter of the shoot. Squadding...cashiering...scoring etc would all be the same.
Why the big push for PITA??

 

You really don't know why the Ohio guys want a PITA shoot?

 

I would tell you myself but they are still in denial. LOL

 

I can absolutely guarantee you, as a PITA member since 1975, and a past PITA Director, the PITA would not stand for the behavior the ATA has exhibited in the past. Anything that interferes with the integrity of the sport, or ANY type of "score management" by anyone, would be dealt with immediately. No waiting for the next minutes, or next board meeting to act. If necessary, the PITA would call an emergency meeting of the entire BOD to deal with the problem. Any action the BOD took would be open for viewing for the entire PITA membership. Why, you ask, would anyone want the PITA at the CC? The answer is straight forward and simple: The PITA does not, and will not, take the same road the ATA has taken regarding the members, and their best interest. Every member of the PITA BOD is as easy to reach as a phone call, and in all my years, any phone call I have made to the PITA, no matter what it was about, was returned in a timely manner, along with the information I called about...... How refreshing it would be to have an organization that was totally transparent, supporting you, backing you, assisting you, and being truthful with you for a change, wouldn't it? Sure, you can cross register targets between the ATA and the PITA, however, the association that hosts the shoot makes the rules, and the shooters abide by them. Believe me, there is a lot more difference between the ATA and the PITA besides the rule book.... Again, just sayin' ya know?

 

If you could get PITA to bring back the 3 hole target I think you would have a lot of converts.

 

Heck there might be a nation wide revolt.

 

Talk is cheap. Initiate it.

 

Amen. I'm in if it happens.

-Gary

 

I'm not holding my breath

 

Dan back in 1981 the OHIO guys made some noise about PITA shooting with WV coming along. Fred Bischel was one of the drivers with some other OSTA members. I remember because I had shot the Canadian Championships in Vancouver, BC a couple of years before so I had some contacts with the PITA and I gave the OSTA some info. The PITA rules at that time were about the same, one of the major differences was the broken target rule, in PITA if you shot at a broken bird you didn't re shoot, you scored the results.

When I was on the OSTA board I contacted the PITA and they were very interested and answered all my questions. I tried to get the OSTA board interested in another OHIO STATE Shoot PITA style but couldn't get them to come along with me. I've always contended that it would be great for Ohio shooters or any Eastern states' shooters to have a second state shoot to attend. I know that the western states do this, and the PITA in the East would be good for the sport of trap shooting. As long as the ATA has a monopoly on registered target shooting it is ATA or non registered only.

Here in Ohio with Jaqua's closing and Middletown struggling the OSTA needs to find another revenue source. In the past I warned the board about this and that the OSTA only makes money on registered ATA targets, and if and when Ohio shooters abandon the ATA the OSTA will bleed money. The good thing for Ohio Trap Shooters is that the Cardinal Center is not OSTA and can do what they want. I'm sure that trap shooting will survive in Ohio and the East, just not ATA registered trap shooting. Personally I'm like Dan, I'd shoot a PITA Ohio State shoot, but I am done shooting ATA targets. Brad

 

I'd be more concerned with losing out of state shooters and Ohio shooters that aren't concerned about all this "ATA stuff". The last thing we need is a decline in attendance at Cardinal or any other major regional shoot.
Most Ohio trap shooters I know would shoot trap for a cup of coffee, but what we (on this site) think may not be the feelings of the majority of Ohio, Penn, Mich, Kentucky, or other adjoining states.
This latest apparent rumors or hear say about the GAH winner, and the lack of action or at least lack of followup information from the ATA has me second guessing if I even want to shoot ATA trap anymore. I might be considered "old school" to be so concerned about the morals and ethics in the manner that the ATA is seeking closure on this issue, but I feel the integrity of our association, and it's ultimate demise are at stake. Yet, I hear little to no concern over the issue from other shooters.

Are we that focused on our own personal scores and averages that the integrity of our most prized event, or association is of no concern?

If our foundation is questionable, where will we ever find stability and growth?

One has to wonder.

 

First I have heard that Middletown is struggling. Is this statement based on the number of targets thrown or from conversations with Mike Erter?

 

Doc Bombay,

I haven't heard any such comments. However I didn't make the recent monthly club meeting.

I was there Saturday the 7th and the parking lot was almost full for their long bird $hoot with some out of state license plates.

MSC seems to have a growing sporting clays crowd and they appear to be prospering especially when you see all the improvements they have recently made at the club. Trap shooters as a rule are fair weather shooters. So I wouldn't put too much into the low trap target count considering this winters weather.


Eddie

 

Eddie,

I spoke with Louie Morgan last night at Eastern Hills and he echoed your observations.

He agrees that Sporting Clays is certainly carrying the load and paying for all the improvements recently made at the club.

 

Last time we were at MSC the girl running the trap program was so rude and disrespectful, we havent been back since. I sent an email to Mike, but never heard back. Maybe others feel the same way.

 

I'm sorry to hear that mikkeeh,

I get quite the opposite reaction from the crew at MSC. For the most part a hard working friendly group who try their best to accommodate shooters.

As a long time member my only rude encounters have come from
ill tempered trap shooters, mostly because they don't know how to
properly handle their emotions. Mike Erter is in my opinion one of the best
managers the club has had in a long ,long time.

My worry is he will burn out from all the nit-picking crap.

Regards, Eddie

 

Rosey,

I've watched what you describe happen for the last 20 years until it has gotten to the point the ATA is today. Of course trap shooting is mirrored by what is happening in the country. I'm to the point that I know it does no good for me to worry about the country and I care less about the mess the ATA is in.

I miss my trapshooting shooting friends that have died, I miss the clubs that have closed, I miss the competition of a 4000 shooter event, I miss the travel and meeting new shooters across the country. I don't miss the cheaters, target claimers, whiners, and ATA BS specialists. I'm also not to fond of the internet experts that have never been anywhere or done anything but know it all facts be damned.

Rosey caring about trapshooting's integrity may be the most futile thing we can do but I'm glad to hear someone else thinks the same as I do.

Brad

 

I got a feeling there are a lot of people who feel that way Brad, many won't say anything because they don't want to be labeled as Anti ATA or establishment ... People complained about the crowds at Vandalia, but would give anything to have them back and to have the ATA the way it used to be ... Those days are gone but will never be forgotten ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Demographics, economics and segmentation of the sports/entertainment market account for most of the decline in ATA shooting. But if having PITA shoots in the eastern half of the country can make trap shooters happier and pressure the ATA to be a little more accountable for its actions (and inactions), then I will happily join PITA and attend their shoots.

Competition is a GOOD thing.

-Gary

 

I've noticed quite a lot of ATAs top shots are shooting sporting clays too. I know sporting clays is a real challenge when compared to our trap game. Is that possibly what's drawing some of our ATA top contenders to participate in that game? There must be an attraction of some sort, certainly it isn't the ability to win loads of cash or is it?

Bashing the ATA, I think not. After all, we are the ATA represented by our elected delegates. What some refer to as ATA bashing is nothing more than dissatisfaction with what our delegates have allowed our EC to change? Maybe it's no wonder we're kept in the dark and fed a steady diet of BS or silence to fertilize a go along to get along mind set? Be careful who you elect as your state delegate.

HAP

 

That could be the logo on the tee shirts.
A picture of a mushroom with eyes and the initials...
KIDFOHS
Kept In the Dark and Fed Only Horse S~*t

Flyersarebest

 

Of course Sporting Clays ate Traps lunch. The ATA's decline accelerated when Sporting Clays became popular. The ATA failed to capitalize on their only strength-the Handicap event-by not making it tougher on the big dogs. They further failed by catering to the trinket shooting crowd and forcing clubs to raise prices to pay for meaningless category trophies. Since turnouts keep going down it becomes necessary to increase fees to make any kind of profit.

Then they keep thinking the way to success is through youth programs but make the targets so easy most kids who grew up on computer games soon get bored and move on (or will when daddy no longer pays the freight). Next they come up with silly categories like junior gold but won't accept credit cards or at least have an ATM on premises since this group is least likely to carry cash.

Old school thinking that won't go away!

 

Hap, oleolliedawg, flyersarebest, so you guys are saying competitive shooters like tough targets and stiff competition? Do you think good shooters can walk off a field and be happy when they only shot an 86? You really think that's why sporting clays is growing and trap is not? Oh, wait, yeah, come to think of it I think that also.

 

Careful, I broke a 96/100 on a fluffed up Sporting Clays course once-my claim to fame. Unfortunately, a guy on my squad broke the hundred. You can tell it wasn't too difficult. I refuse to discuss those 67's I broke too!

 

The draw to Sporting clays is the variation and competition factors. It is very difficult to shoot good continuous scores in sporting due to the target variation, background, and experience required. At the Caribbean cup this week, Bill McQuire won the main, and scored well in other events (FITASC, 5 Stand, Etc.) and won a whopping $1,963.

These are not fluff targets. Go to Winscore.com

It's not the money, it's about learning the shooting curve, competition, and having fun with friends....... and bitching about how tough the birds were!

 

When I was shooting competition I never cared if I broke an 88 in caps, as long as the next high score was 87. Some of the best shooting I ever did was just to stay in the 80's. The difference between putting an 80 and a 79 on my card seemed a lot more than 1 target. Brad

 

Brad, with all due respect, it is a bit of a mouthful for you to be complaining about whiners. I have not been to the places or done the shooting that you have, (I have registered just over 200,000 targets) but I would like to address some of your allegations.

You traveled the circuit, shooting and living off your wins, (a great life style, if you can pull it off), and now moan that there is no money in the game. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the lesser shooters, who were having their pockets picked by the guys who made a living with their trap gun, just got weary of being contributors to your chosen lifestyle?

Then you state that there are some here who know it all, facts be damned. I have seen you mention on more than a few occasions, the fact that targets are thrown 46 yards in handicap. I am in no position to argue that is not a fact where you shoot, but where I shoot, a 42.5 mph target will go to at least 49 yards in still air, and that is where we set them. If they are set to 46 yards where you set targets, that is your fault.

And finally, as to your 100,000 membership figure and the observation that the shooters are only 30% of what they once were. I will concede that the shooters are down, and down significantly, but according to my research, the number of active shooters (not including the life members, like yourself, who no longer shoot competitively) peaked out at a 56,375 in 1990.

So Brad, if you are going to complain about whiners, don't whine, as per the glass house analogy.

 

From the September 1979 Trap & Field Mag page 105, Dave Bopp's Manager's Office column he writes about the ATA's soon to be 100,000 member who would be joining and all the gifts they would receive. I can go through my old T&F from 1980's and give you his name, I think he was from Illinois but I'll need to check if you want me too.

You can't set consistent targets with a radar gun. I'm not going to argue with you on the net but if you want me to explain it to you call me at my Thorn Bottom number and I'll be happy to talk about it. The easier you set the targets the less chance a (lesser) shooter has. Speed and distance kills, check how much higher my scores were on easy targets. You mistake what I say, easy targets are better for good gun pointers, bad for the sport.

If you are really interested look at the history of Trap Shooting and were it came from. The ATA has strayed from it's natural base and is floundering like skeet. Never any money in skeet, just ribbons.

Right now the pocket picking of the lesser shooters is being done by the ATA EC's and the gun companies. It is sad to think that a trap shooter needs a $20,000 single bbl to break an ATA target. ATA Trap has become way to snobbier at the registered level. It wasn't that way 40 years ago when I started or I would have never been a shooter. I feel bad for the 870 guy of today, I don't think he feels welcome.

You can call me a whiner but don't argue with me about history or facts, you'll loose. Like Elmer Kieth said "Hell I was There"

Brad

 

Brad, you are correct when you say that there were 100,000 members, but those members were not all participants like I pointed out, they included life members who no longer shot. In those days a life membership was $50.00 and were affordable for the average shooter (I paid $75.00 for mine). Now you have shooters like the Doc who blow about being a life member who have contributed nothing more than daily fees for 40 years, and feel that they should be held to a higher esteem.

Just because some single barrel trap guns are in that $20,000 range doesn't mean that a shooter should feel obligated to purchase one. You were fortunate enough to be able to shoot a Model 12, and probably won a truck load of money with it, but I couldn't figure out how to shoot those flat shooting guns. It wasn't until I sent an MX3 to Tom Seitz to have the barrel bent up that I learned how to shoot. The reason that there are so many good shooters today is that there are a lot of options in terms of adjustable poi guns, so the shooter can make them shoot where they are looking.

I am certainly not looking down my nose at the 870 shooter, and am sure that more than a few have kicked my butt with one. I know that Bob Munson stated out with one and there is a picture of a young Ray Stafford with one on the cover of my 1976 Average book, so if an 870 was good enough for them, it should be good enough for someone today. The money that used to be in the game, I think, is a thing of the past for the reason that I outlined earlier, and I am not sure anything can be done short of compulsory purses (and that will drive shooter away) to change that.

 

I shot Sporting Clays twice, 72/68 respectively ... I was bummed out about shooting so bad when one of the guys said I was second high on the squad and would be classed in B class if I was registered ... I used a Model 12 trap gun and it smoked a lot of them targets ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Barry, What is a magnum?

 

Man sized Trojan ... wpt ...(yac) ...

 

Jo2: I shot a lot from 1968 to 2000, over 110,000 targets, I won a lot of money at the night shoots during the Ohio State Shoot and the Grand week, slept in the back of my PU truck to save money, I am offended you saying I just paid fees for 40 years, do some history before openining you Pie Hole, you say a lot of inaccuracies, I shot a hell of a lot of HARD ANGLE Calcuttas, I shot ATA and shot 6 days a week, could not find a shoot on a Monday. I shot the 44 degree angle targets at 50-52 yards as that was the required setting.
Radar gun setting the targets is how Marietta Gun Club sets theirs, because of the shooting over the hill.
They are all set the same way. I like the fact that PITA officers are not paid, ATA officers seem to do anything that will put money in their pockets. Take the total wages, Expenses, travel, meals, lodging they get and total it up, you will be absolutely amazed. It was never this way in the early years, and GW22 you are a disgrace to the ATA in your Bashing Posters on this site, are you sure you are not Barfin from the other site? You are an instigator and need to be reprimanded or removed from this site.
When you get a $100,000 +salary and a new gun as President of the ATA something is drastically wrong.
The Original officers for years served at the discretion of the members, Neil Winston was the worst President ever of the ATA, and now we have Rob Taylor on his coattails, sliding along wanting 42 yard or shorter, doubles targets. Rob Taylor Mandate 44 degree angle, 50 Yard Targets, with a $5,000 dollar fine for any club not throwing those targets for a first offense. And the reason I have slowed down on ATA shooting is my Health, just look at my left ankle at a shoot and you will see the problem, all bones are broken due to age, and at a severe angle when I walk. But I still love to shoot trap, and doing as much as I can tolerate.

If we ATA Members could take away all monies paid to the Pres., Treas.,BOD, EC, CHC, the ATA would be in a lot better position to help Gun Clubs Re-model, purchase better equipment.

I tried to speak to the ATA at the GAH Meeting, I tried to get elected to office to facilitate changes for the betterment of our great Sport Of Trapshooting. Neil Winston and I do not see eye to eye, he has ruined the ATA Sport Of Trapshooting. I am not an ATA Basher, just pointing out the inequtities
Gary Bryant Dr,Longshot Life Member

 

If the ATA will not enforce their rules and are unwilling to listen to the majority of the shooters then I ask why are we paying them monies?

I am betting some organization would love the monies from a venue like the Cardinal Center.

 

FG, What did the CC say when you brought up the shooting PITA targets idea?

 

I have not talked to anyone at the CC about PITA but they log in here almost every day. As Luke from the CC implied they are looking for ways to keep the parking lots filled.

They are not bound by the corruption of the ATA.

 

No one said they were bound by the ATA.

I just figured since you started the thread you have talked to someone from the CC instead of just throwing out comments.

One other question, What numbers do you have when you constantly refer to as the "majority" of the ATA? Any verifiable source?

 

I don't think we will see PITA targets at a major shoot in Ohio but it would send a message.

 

The scores would go to both PITA & ATA but I feel the PITA would be the most beneficial

 

I understand there are issues with travel expenses, but why the misleading postings that officers of ATA have 6 figure salaries? I don't believe that's true but it gets promoted here all the time. Why is that?

 

Leonidas,
I get that you are anti Cardinal Center. I get that you don't want this forum. We all get that you and many of your pals in the west don't want the harder targets. xxxxx targets for pussies.

2/3 of the ATA membership has been depleted under your friends watch. We also have seen what you and your pals have done with the name grand.

The Cardinal Center keeps investing in trapshooting. The IDNR is trying to get someone else to handle your failing shoot in Illinois. We don't have to call the CC to get them interested. They can see the forum. They are tuning in unlike the EC and BOD which is tuning the membership out.

PITA may be another avenue for revenue for the CC. Trapshooting will last in the heartland of trapshooting. The ATA may be doomed by design.

 

Leonidas....if only the ATA was so forward thinking. They seem to be busy covering up cheating scandals while the rest of us are trying to find a way to promote trapshooting.

 

FG, I've have NEVER said I was anti-Cardinal Center, didn't want this forum and I DO shoot straight away targets from post #1 and #5 to this day. That is how our traps are set at our local Ikes club. (non-ATA).

All I ask is where you got your numbers that you even post in the above post #61.

But like everyone else that can only spew unconfirmed facts you change your posts to accusations when confronted to show where you get your information from. (like the above posts #61 & 62) How can you expect any creditability using those tactics?

 

What club would that be? I am calling bullshit. I doubt you shoot ATA targets regardless of how easy they are.

Your avatar anti Cardinal picture shows your envy and your hatred for the Cardinal Center. Not that anyone should care. Your envy is well noted. The CC will have 3 more dates added. It kills you doesn't it.

Maybe, just maybe we will have PITA targets. Another revenue stream. I bet that really frosts your britches.

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Now now now FG. He never said he was anti CC.

That avatar with the circle and slash was because he, lets see, what was the reason?
Oh yeah I remember,
"You slam my avatar without even asking it's meaning to me. Could be about St. Louis baseball, Arizona football or could be area High School mascot that is in an high school rivalry with my local high school. Now my friend you will never know."

OR, it could be because he doesn't like shooters saying that the move to sparta, farther away from the large amount of shooters in OH and PA, SUCKED.

Just a guess on my part of course since he said we will never know. I wonder why ?

Flyersarebest

 

Doc, why are you offended when I point out that you have only paid shooting fees for 40 years, as a life member? Really, I am in the same boat, we paid for a life membership (half of the $50.00, $75.00 in my case, went back to our state) and have only contributed daily fees since. The shooters who paid their yearly membership for all those years have contributed far more to the ATA than you or I have. Really, you and I purchased a life membership because we were cheapskates.

I am not disputing the fact that you shot 3 hole, 50 yard targets, I did too.

What I would like to know, is where you got the idea that Rob Taylor gets paid one red cent let alone $100,000 as president of our organization. He is reimbursed for his expenses and he may or may not take the shotgun at the end of his term as president. I have seen the sum of $100,000 bandied about here several times and wondered who it was that is supposed to be paid this money. I can assure you that the members on the EC are not paid.

 

Wow Jo2. Complaining that someone stepped up to the plate and became a life member is about the dumbest post yet. (just my opinion) It also sounds like Doc is a better businessman than you. He accepted an offer made by his organization. They they reneged on the life memberships.

Another reason for them to resign. It would not cost the EC members a penny then. Great. Let 'em go. Glad it won't hurt their families none. The whole lot need to go. They are costing us more than we could ever pay them.

Maybe we can recruit some ex PITA officials.

 

Fg, on the contrary, my observation was that being a life member was being touted a a big deal, when it really isn't. Do you know something that I don't regarding when they reneged on life memberships? I have never been notified of that fact.

Trust me Fg, if everyone in the ATA was as inane as you are, I am sure that no exPITA officials would be interested in governing the group.

 

I don't have the time to educate you on the sale of the grounds of Vandalia and what was promised therein.

It is a big deal to me at least. It shows commitment over the long haul. That lifetime membership, putting the money up front, was a personal loan to the organization. I doubt tho they would have done it considering what has happened in the last 15 years.

 

Fg, you seem to have lots of time to be critical of anything to do with the ATA, why don't you give us a second or two to explain what the sale of the Homegrounds in Vandalia has to do with reneging on life memberships.

 

It's pretty clear Jo2's point is the Life Membership deals back in the days he is referring to were not so much a sign of a financial commitment to the ATA, and in many cases resulted in those shooters generally contributing less to the ATA than an ongoing annual member.

Also, the ATA Articles of Incorporation were amended in 1955 to remove the previous requirement for voting members (life members) to approve the sale of ATA property. That's the legal document that controls the matter.

 

I have paid 10 times the membership fees than those life members who paid $50.00.

I do not think the ATA owes me anything, I have enjoyed the ride.

I don't think there are many life members on here who predate 1955 except Mr Berlet.

It doesn't stop the others from thinking they are entitled.

 

I still have my life member certificate which I got in 1958 and it states that the sale of the property had to be voted on by the life members.

Dave Berlet

 

Oh, oh!

 

That's right Dave, guess you don't go back far enough to have been affected.

The Board took away those rights in 1955 by amending the Articles of Incorporation, the legal document that controls. They failed to change the wording on the certificates, which, although a major screw-up, are not the governing instruments. Many of you seem to be blaming the wrong Board of Directors for taking away these rights, when all the later Board did was realize the guys in 1955 screwed up on the certificate issue, and did what their fiduciary duty required - correct the certificates to agree with the decades old change to the Articles of Incorporation.

 

How can a decree in 1955 remove the rights issued on a certificate in 1958? WoW....what law school invented that one?

 

"Rights" can't be issued on a certificate in conflict with the governing documents. The certificates were worthless as far as the voting issue is concerned starting in late 1955.

 

Isn't that reneging on a promise? The issuer then knowingly issued fraudulent documents and had no intentions of following the terms of the agreement.

Would PITA treat their members this way?

 

I don't believe they "knowingly issued fraudulent" anything. They changed the Articles and the Bylaws in the '50's, and upon doing that the voting issue was moot. Yep, they should have fixed the certificate wording, but they blew it. And that screw-up lasted a long time until the guys in power in 2004 did what they had to do upon realizing the error and corrected it. Maybe someone realized it earlier and just buried their heads in the sand so to speak, I don't know. In reality, few bother to read the bylaws etc. so they wouldn't really know how anything is supposed to be operated. At least these guys stepped up and took the proper action instead of ignoring it.

I would expect that PITA would also operate in accordance with their Bylaws and organizing documents.

 

They wrote the document and they issued the document after they voted to make them worthless.

That was the week they decided to sell the property and looked for a way to get out of their promise to the life members.

And you think that is "proper action." Certainly was convenient. Just so happens we caught it today. Great way to treat the membership. And folks here question why we would not be dedicated to such a group.

I ask again....would PITA treat their members that way?

 

I'm quite sure PITA would operate in accordance with their charter and bylaws.

 

Governing documents do not trump state laws. (attorneys please help)

 

What? The state law that is applicable is that the entity must be operated in accordance with its governing instrument. Now, you could have some contract issues to argue concerning the wording on the certificates, but that would have no bearing on the voting issue. Look at those certificates, not all of the older ones even have that vote wording on them, I believe that wording disappeared well prior to the 2004 board actions.

 

Bat- - -Please see Dave Berlet's post.

A contract like this would be trumped first by contract state law. After that corp entity rules would apply. Please correct. These were issued post 1955.

Offer, acceptance, and consideration is on the table. I do no see how this is not a valid contract.

 

Here's a simple question, does all this arguing, complaining, and in fighting help anyone? Or, is it just something to do?

 

Hi Duff, to answer your question. The thread seems to be focused on a few issues. Why should I want to shoot PITA targets? What is the PITA organization like? What is the ATA organization like? How have each of those orgs treated their memberships? Is integrity important?

Duff, you tell me. How would you answer those questions?

 

I would simply say, I don't care which one is throwing the targets. I will shoot at either one. PITA isn't available to me, in the NE, so I only have one choice. That being said, I'm old enough to know, there is no organization that pleases everyone. So, either deal with the rules. as they are, rise up and start a grassroots movement to change existing rules, or just don't go to the shoots, and leave it be. For those who think the rules change, the location change, and target managers are the reason for the decline is trapshooting, you've missed the last twenty years in the country as a whole. All outdoor activities have been in decline; hunting, fishing, golf, skiing, etc. They all have the same problem--young people don't want to do them, you can barely get them to get a job and leave their mommy's house, let alone go and have to exert some energy, with a lot of commitment and time required to be successful. It's easier to just hit the reset button on the game console, when it's not going your way.

 

FG,

I know it has some frustrated, but it is what it is. The wording on those certificates was a mess. Think about it, ignore the actual legal requirement to abide by the Articles and the Bylaws for a minute: Dave's certificate says he gets a vote, later certificates do not say that, certainly by 1996 the wording is gone. Probably removed much earlier. How would you manage a vote of life members anyway? How many would be needed to pass a vote? Heck, nobody even knows how many life members there are, much less how many have certificates saying they get a vote. You'd need a majority of those entitled to vote the way the original provision was written. Since certificates have been issued at least since the mod 90's without that wording, I think you have quite a challenge on your hands.

duffkjs - maybe there are some out there that can consider the actual issues involved and not just emotions, but mostly this is just an exercise in typing.

 

I do not have a challenge on my hands. The ATA reneged on their notes. I was not one of those that were mislead.

You imply the folks that entrusted the ATA were foolish. Many are not so foolish anymore.

 

I guess that proves the point at the end of my previous post.

 

There are thirty million more gun owners and shooters today than there were when Obama took office, that was in 2009. It isn't true that all shooting sports are suffering. Archery for one, not to mention sporting clays are growing. Woman are the fastest growing segment of hunters. Shows like Duck Dynasty are all over cable TV. Hunting and gun ownership is more excepted today than anytime in the last 50 years. The sky isn't falling everywhere, not excepting why trap shooters tell you they have quite shooting ATA is just sticking your head in the sand.

When I was on the OSTA board many shooters asked if we were going to start and Eastern Trap Association, my own personal opinion was that we should shoot PITA. The PITA already has a record keeping system, they have a national tournament, they have an All Star team. They have everything that you would need if you wanted to shoot register trap but was mad at the ATA for moving the Grand. If you aren't going to the Sparta Grand it would be just as easy to not go to the PITA grand, you would be out nothing.

I see apathy as the driving factor in the ATA's decline. Shooters that feel like me have just quite. The ATA has always did a bad job of retention and a good job of recruiting, not so much today. The average ATA shooter only lasted 3 years in the hey day of the sport. Illinois is too anti gun of a state and too far west of the crowd of trap shooters to inspire a large number of newbies. I will say it again Moving the Grand to Sparta is the reason the ATA is dying.

Hope and Prayer isn't a strategy that leads to success. Oh I forgot the PITA doesn't give the president a $20,000 trap gun every year either. Brad

 

Leonidas...if you had half a keen sense of the obvious you would see where the CC management gave you your answer. Look very closely.

 

Grinning.

 

Go bother someone else!

 

Shooting sports in general are not dying. Gun ownership is at an all time high since Obama encouraged sales. Many Sporting Clays courses are doing quite well and handguns are still flying off the shelves. Since I visited Krieghoff last week I can assure everyone that every $10,000 and up gun is sold as soon as it gets in the country. Sure, many younger people who are only high school grads or picked the wrong major are hurting but others make more money than I ever dreamed about. The country is full of haves with plenty of disposable income and they're buying guns!

 

PITA is throwing more targets again. The Cardinal Center is doing well. They are picking up 3 more dates.

The campground there is usually sold out.

 

What three dates?

 

The shooting sports are very much alive with sporting clays growing in leaps and bounds. We are starting a new three day sporting clays event at the Cardinal Center this year. It will be the weekend before the Cardinal Classic August 14-16. It is called the REDBIRD SPORTING CLASSIC We already have a ton of support and sponsors to get this thing off the ground. We have a guaranteed cash purse of $13,000 and we are giving away a ZOLI Z-Sport Bilanx during the Saturday night Banquet. This shoot is open to everyone and will cover pretty much the whole grounds. The first 125 shooters to register for the main event will receive 100 rounds of Fiocchi Ammo. You can register on Winscore at winscoreonline.com

 

Thats 1, 2 more?