Did our ATA delegates vote for$250,000 to HOF Bldg.

Clyde Findley our Ohio Delegate, did you vote for the $250,000 donation of our ATA Funds to HOF building which is owned by Illinois? Did all ATA delegates have a vote on this money transfer approval?

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

call him and ask him

 

I would like the answer. Not sure what jd8820 wants to hide. I lurk here to get information. I doubt the guy wants all of us to call.

Was there a vote to give the State of Illinois $250k? Us lurkers need to know too.

 

If the delegates did vote on this "gift", were they made aware of the "lease agreement" beforehand ?

Or if the EC were the only voters, were they aware of the "Lease" (Gift to Illinois) ?

Sort of wondered this myself .

 

Why is this important? ATA members often cite the frivolity of the ATA owning property, yet want a HOF museum.

 

Common sense, Logic, reasoning, and thought ... If not used in conjuction with Integrity, there is no future ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

COAZTRAP
Issues
1. The ATA does not own the building.
2. The Hall of Fame does not own the building.
3. The state of Illinois owns the building.
4. "We" are the stewards of our sport and organization.

I am curious as to where it implies in some way in the ATA by-laws that the ATA can give monies or capital to the State of Illinois for a museum it does not own or control.

 

Well do you want a museum or not? If sometime in the future, near or far, the ATA relocates to another site it does not own, won't this same problem come up again? You put your delegates in charge and limit their options to do their duties, then want to crucify them?

Perhaps ATA should buy some property in downtown Vandalia and put it there.

 

I'm not to sure the question of having a museum is as important as putting it in a place that can preserve the existance of it ... The HOF contains a lot of history, to just put it in a place where it has no meaning would be as useless as not having it at all ... It represents nothing to the State of Illinois and will be even more meaningless if by chance the Elected Officials close the WSRC due to budget cuts ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

COAZTRAP,
If the ATA gave $20 Million we still would not own the building.
That still does not answer the op as to who approved this?

Are you saying the delegates made the decision to give money to the State of Illinois. I have not seen that posted. Is that the case?

 

Then where is the place of meaning? Wherever ATA is located, someplace historic or ??
If the answer is "where" the ATA is located and if the property is not owned, this should be an understood risk that we might lose it. If the property is not owned we cannot expect salvage or recouping money spent without title. Do we expect some third party to erect our shrines for us, for free?

Guess I don't understand the question in the OP, why it was asked, or what is expected outcome.

 

Family guy,

I ask again, is the museum something ATA must have and who do you expect to pay for it?

 

1. We (ATA members) do not own it.
2. The 2 entities ATA and HOF are separate.
3. I do not feel I "must" have it as you asked.
4. The HOF can pay for their own building.

So did the delegates vote on this?

 

Isn't that the question of the original post?

 

You don't understand why we would want to know who made this decision?

 

Okay, thanks. You answered the question, you do not think we need it.

if that is the case, the money should not have been spent on it. Does everyone else believe the same?

 

Who made the decision? Who voted on this? Did someone just walk into the ATA office and take $250K out of the safe?

 

The HOF may need this. I am not speaking as being part of that organization. They are separate.

 

COAZTRAP

I will ask you again. Who made the decision? Is this a secret?

 

Maybe ATA was under the delusion the membership wanted it.

 

This is not about want or delusion.

The question is about "who made the decision"?

 

Again the question is not about whether it should or needed to be done. It is not about what we believe. The question is about who made the decision.

COAZTRAP--it is obvious you do not want that question answered.

 

No, that is not what I am saying. I was under the delusion the HOF was under ownership and control of the ATA as part of the ATA organization. My error. Please disregard all my posts on this thread. I am sorry for my confusion.

 

Dr. Longshot, Here is the contact information to the Hall of Fame. When you get your answer back from them please let the rest of us know the answer to your question.

http://www.traphof.org/Hall-Info/contact-us.html

 

From website provided in above link:

Donors:

The Hall of Fame and Museum

is solely provided by the support of the ATA membership,

the shooting sports industry, and friends of trapshooting. Every contributor to the Hall of Fame is recognized in the Museum's permanent records, on our web page, and in Trap & Field Magazine. Gifts are tax deductible under Section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code. Please let us know if you would like to make a donation. (For contact information see, our "Contact Us" page).


--------

Now I am confused again. But don't bother to expain it to me, I'll only get more confused.

 

Okay back to Dr Longshot's question. If I read the by-laws correctly, the delegates would not have to grounds or position to vote on a donation like this. It could not be put before the delegates to vote on. This is reserved to the Board.

 

Correction: :should read: "would not have the grounds," instead of would not have to grounds"

 

The delegates are the "board".

 

I have contacted the HOF they said in their voicemail they will get back with me.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Everyone of the delegates or just a few of them?

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I would't hurt to try again.

 

The Martins donated 1 Million dollars to the HOF, they also spent a small fortune ($550,000) trying to increase the attendance at the Grand, it didn't work ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The Board is the elected State Delgates. There needs to be a minimum of delegates or alternates to make up a quorum. So what was the date of the meeting the vote was taken and who was there?

 

I am wondering why longshot doesn't call him and ask him instead of asking on here.

 

Why don't you call Longshot instead of using the forum.

You have a friend that does not want the subject discussed?

The rest of us want the answer.

 

Someone gave $250K to Illinois

 

No not Someone, it was ATA money, for HOF on property they do not own.

GB DLS

 

Wondering where the cool-ade drinkers are. There is almost no one defending this.

 

Well isn't obvious the Board made up of delegates did vote for the expenditure? If not how did the money get appropriated otherwise? It would appear the the answer to the question is "yes" so now what?

 

He is no longer our Ohio Delegate. We have a new Delagate. I will ask him when I see him, to find out how that $250,000 was approved.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

The funds were approved at the meeting of August 13th, 2014 and the Delegates voted 47 for and 0 against You can find this in the 2014 ATA Meeting Minutes. Again this was before the Illinois Governor stated that funds were vetoed for the IDNR Sparta complex. The possibility of no funding for the Sparta complex and possible closeure were not in consideration at that time.

 

Thanks oldphart.

Please help me as I am misreading or misunderstanding. I read the minutes as stating is was a majority vote of the "directors." Can anyone clear this up? I am not sure who the directors are as it seems to be in conflict with the statement by oldphart.

Ref: lines 419 and further.

 

Ever heard the term "Board of Directors?" FG? They are the Delegates. Together they are the BOD. That's whose meeting the minutes are referring to.

N1H1

 

Yes, N1H1. I wanted that cleared up. Also have a question as to how many a majority is? The minutes says it passed by "majority".

I do not see where the resolution says the money and or capital will be going to the state of Illinois. If I were to read that and was voting I may not have asked if the building was going to be owned by the HOF.

I question whether the vote would have been different had the resolution said we are giving the money to the State of Illinois so they can build a museum we will never own. All those in favor?

Or is the wording as put in the minutes exactly as what was said to the delegates? Does the wording imply the building will be owned by Illinois?

Did the delegates due their due diligence by looking at the lease agreement first?

Did we learn this before the delegates did?

Am I the only person that would like to hear from a delegate?

 

Family Guy,

As N1H1 stated and so everyone is clear, the "directors" refers to the Board of Directors (BOD) who are the elected Sate and Provincial delegates.

One Delegate from each Zone is elected annually as the Zone Vice President who also serves as a member of the the ATA Executive Committee (E.C.)

Several annual meetings take place each year during the Grand American tournament. The E. C. has a meeting. Each Zone has a meeting. The BOD have their meeting which is open to the public but the Delegates (BOD & E. C. members) are the main attendees discussing issues. The E. C. schedules reports from the Executive Director, Secretary, Treasurer, reports of committees, etc. and others are often also invited to make comments on specific matters of importance.

Also, the Past Presidents also hold an annual meeting and provide input on issues during the BOD meeting. Due to their experience, they offer comment regarding proposed changes, either supporting or opposing proposals.

Votes can be taken by majority of hands or voice and some Delegates call for a roll call vote where all votes are recorded by State & Province as being, "for" or "against" or "abstained." There is always a quorum and the majority of those Delegates present decide whether a motion is passed or rejected.

The State Delegate I spoke with some months ago advised me that the BOD voted in favor of donating the $250,000 to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame for the construction of a new museum onsite at the World Shooting and Recreational Complex. He said he did not hear any information that the museum would be owned by the State of Illinois. Perhaps it was brought up but he said he did not hear this information.

Hopefully some of the Delegates will comment on this matter. Perhaps it is not an issue with some donors and that's fine. I certainly hope the Delegate I spoke with was not paying attention and it was reported. However, if it was not reported, it certainly should have been. Honesty is always the best policy.

I hopes this is helpful.

If I've left out other important items I hope others will feel free to add to this summary.

 

After reading HistoryBuffs post I have a question for Family Guy.

What information do you have that says the State of Illinois owns or will own the HOF building?

 

vote was 47 for and 0 against to make the donation.
I for one am in favor of the HOF building even if Sparta was not my
choice location. I would think that the State of Illinois owns it OR for $250,000.00 it would have been a cheap buy.

Birddog

 

I think I can answer that Leonidas, if I'm reading things correctly.

It was posted on this forum a few weeks ago. Someone either knows somebody in high up places or made a Freedom of Information request to the State of Illinois requesting the lease agreement between the IDNR and the ATA as well as the lease agreement between the IDNR and the Trapshooting Hall of Fame. Both agreements were uploaded to the AT.Com forum for all to read. The agreement contained the following language :



This is certainly a very surprising revelation.

Many folks are wondering if the Board of Directors were made aware of this important fact prior to their vote to approve the $250,000 donation from the ATA.

I'm wondering if I'm reading the ATA lease correctly because it seems to suggest (at least to me) that the ATA leases the entire campground each year for the 15 days of the Grand American and pays the IDNR prior to the GAH for all the nearly 1000 sites, an amount that computes to approximately $349,000. I've put all the numbers together and it seems to accurate to me unless I'm misconstruing the language in the lease. In 2013 the ATA submitted a campground expense on their Form 990, Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax, in the amount of $205,629 so I shouldn't be too far off with my figures.

I'd appreciate it if any Delegate will advise me if the ATA has been leasing the entire campground on the WSRC and paying the IDNR in advance of the Grand and would also correct my above figures to make them accurate. I want to be truthful in all my posts and will gladly accept having my comments corrected.

Hope this helps,

 

This is certainly a very surprising revelation.

WOW..

Doesn't get any clearer than this !

 

If you build on state land why would you be surprised it belongs to the state. I think the delegates went in to this with there eyes wide open.

 

Like I posted on another thread, it is an everyday occurrence for a business to pay for refreshes or build-outs on property it does not own. Sometimes there is a rent adjustment, sometimes not. The improvements generally end up being owned by the lessor. No difference here. The deal may turn out poorly, or it might work out; regardless, the posts making it sound like this is some sort of unheard of transaction because the HOF doesn't own the building seem to be made from someone with an agenda.

As to the ATA's donation, they donated to the HOF. HOF is the entity spending the money. My guess is that the ATA kinda needed to make some charitable grants and the HOF was an obvious candidate.

 

Bat
That was well said.

 

Bat

I am sure then you can name a long list of people that built $2.1 million dollar buildings on land they did not own and could be evicted from for any reason or no reason. I will wait that long list.

Even far more outrageous is your implication that the ATA, a 501c corporation, was in need of a charity that was more important than its members. That is bizarre at best.

 

Was the HOF on ATA owned property when it was in Vandalia?

 

FG, as I stated, lots of money is spent on build-outs etc on property the business does not own. You know that. As to the 501(c) issue, I'd guess, only a guess, that you are not really that familar with the issue. C3's very often make grants to other charitable orgs.

 

AZCO, I may be wrong about this but I believe the building housing the HOF was on ATA owned property. Most of the trap fields, plus probably some of the other buildings were not, but someone else will have better info.

 

While there no doubt are some businesses who make the decision to construct a multi-million dollar building on leased property for that property owner, I find it hard to believe that it is a common practice as seems to be implied. Most of us chose to own our own house and those in business I would assume would rather own their land and building than lease. I understand that sometimes leasing makes the best sense.

The important question I ask myself is:

Would I ask for donations to construct a museum to house a collection of artifacts in which I was responsible to protect on property owned by someone else and agree to donate the newly constructed museum to the property owner? I just cannot answer the question with a "yes."

I also would never place ownership of the collection in jeopardy by agreeing that if I failed to remove the property belonging to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame, Inc., within an agreed number of days, it is then considered abandoned and is now the property of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources.

I guess its just a difference of opinion on what's in the best interests of the organization. I'm hopeful my concerns have all been for naught and things will all work out.

Yes the ATA owned a number of acres to include the main building and other buildings and the HOF was provided with an area to house their collection and office space.

A bit of history for those interested.

 

Thanks History Buff !!!

I agree 100% with you, and I certainly understand there are varying opinions on this subject.

I am not a business man, so I cannot justify one way or the other the way things were done with this.

Oh yes, I love #4 & #5 makes sense, even back then.

 

If you have ever leased a business space Bat's explanation is spot on.

To suggest the delegates were tricked into donating 250k is foolish.

 

Terry,

Businesses don't build buildings or do refreshes "for" the property owner, they do it for their business. The improvements will just about always be the property of the owner, either immediately or at latest when the tenant vacates. That's a cost of business. Many, many, I'd say most businesses lease their property. I'd guess even a larger % of NFP organizations lease. I'm not sure how that applies in Sparta Il, but across the country I believe it is accurate.

I'm not saying this was the correct way for the HOF to handle it, I don't know all the facts. I'm just saying that to claim that the ATA gave $250,000 to IL, and calling for the names of ATA delegates involved is misleading. The trustees made this building decision, not the BOD of the ATA. Maybe it was a poor decision, again I don't know all the facts.

I don't think the clause about abandoning the property left in the building x number of days after termination is that unusual either.

How is the building financed? What is the debt service, if any?

 

I think there are many instances where a business will build on property owned by another party, but will enter into a long term lease, like 99 years, to stay in it. A shopping mall is a good example where you have multiple businesses on separately owned property. There used to be some advantages to doing this and really some businesses would create a separate property group which they still own but operate as a separate business and lease the property back to themselves.

As long as many feel property ownership to hold the Grand is not warranted, this is going to be a problem.

 

And just for the record, it seems unwarranted to me as well for just 10 days use. What would have to happen is some sort of consortium of shooting disciplines to get together and create their own shooting complex, but that will never happen either.

 

Same question before (just trying to understand history). was the old HOF on ATA owned ground or owned by same landlord like the rest of the facility?????

 

As I read the minutes I do not see where it is mentioned. An AT.C forum member had to do a Freedom of Information request.

Wishbone as per you statement do you have information showing the delegates understood the building would be owned by the State of Illinois?

It is the first time I have seen a 501c corp donate money or capital to a State.

 

I don't have any first hand information as I was not present during the vote.

We elect delegates to represent us. That means due diligence before they vote.
If someone voted without all the facts shame on them.

Ask your delegate if he voted for the donation and if he understood we would not own the building.
My delegate understood the circumstances. I believe they all understood.
JMHO

 

Still not clear.

"And the HOF was provided with an area to house their collection and office space."

Does not sound to me like the real estate was "owned" if an "area was provided."

 

AZCOTRAP,
Let's make this clear for you, at Vandalia the ATA owned a number of acres, on this land stood the ATA main bldg. owned by the ATA, inside this bldg. an area was provided to the HOF. The HOF did not own any part of this bldg. or any of the land the bldg was situated on. As previously stated a space was provided for the ATA HOF to display the Shooting memorbilia and the HOF offices.. To the best of my knowledge the HOF does not own the artifacts of Trapshooting but is the custodian of the same. Some may differ on this interpretation.

 

History Buff would be the best person to speak to this but if you donated items they belong to the HOF.
They own much of the collection.
If you loaned items they are still yours.

 

Thank you oldphart, that is the answer I was looking for. ATA owned the land which housed the ATA museum in Ohio.

 

Back about 1954 the ATA discussed the establishment of a Hall of Fame, making their discussion part of the official minutes. They announced the establishment of a Hall of Fame in the Sportsmen's Review at the end of that year and included details of some basic rules of the organization, its committee and tabulation of votes for the nominees.

In 1968 the first major change in the main structure in 45 years, included an addition which would house the Trapshooting Hall of Fame on the second floor.

The Hall of Fame finally came to fruition largely due to the efforts of ATA, Past President Dwight Brown who had worked for about 10 years on the creation of the THOF. As such, he was chosen to head the Hall of Fame and a committee was named by ATA President Earl Toliver, consisting of the one and only Jimmy Robinson, trap and skeet editor of Sports Afield, and our own Betty Ann Foxworthy, editor of Trap & Field.

Ten names were selected for enshrinement in the Trapshooting Hall of Fame the first year. A short biography appeared in the August 1968 issue of Trap & Field.

In 1969 the first induction ceremony was held.

In 1973 the Trapshooting Hall of Fame incorporated, becoming an entity separate from the A.T.A. but was certainly dependent upon its close relationship with its parent organization.

In short, for many decades, the Trapshooting Hall of Fame was the grateful beneficiary of A.T.A. who provided financial assistance, management and office and museum space rent free. As a tax-exempt corporation, the THOF did not own property grounds or structures. The organization does own over 5,000 artifacts donated to the museum, some of which are on loan.

The Trustees are charged with properly managing and safeguarding the organization in all respects.

I hope this adequately answers the question while providing a little history as well.

 

Well I hope so, I was trying to find out if the HOF occupied property owned free and clear with title by the ATA or if HOF (and the ATA offices) were on property owned by someone else.......like this time.

Now as to the next time, after Sparta, if that be the case. If the ATA is to have a HOF (or offices) does it make more sense to own the property, perhaps off site, or act as squatters?

If we have lost 250,000 on the HOF, how much have we lost on the cost of replacing office space or does it matter?

 

The HOF will have 60 days to remove their items if the lease is broken. Correct me if I am wrong but the State of Illinois will be permitted to erect this sign out front.



I am betting it takes longer than that to insure the items for the return to the storage locker.

 

Hugh McKinley past OSTA president removed all of his HOF merchandise on loan when the debate began on ATA moving, He was a smart man, I do not know if he was a past ATA president or not.

 

He was never president of the ATA.
Ohio has only had 2 ATA Presidents. Huber in the 50's and Tom Acklin was the other and we know how that worked out.

 

Hugh "Bud" McKinley was the ATA Manager from 1964 thru 1974.

He was an OSTA board member from 1951-1957, serving as OSTA President in 1956 & 1957

From 1958 until he accepted the appointment of General Manager of the ATA, he served as secretary-treasurer of the OSTA.

He was inducted into the OSTA Trapshooting Hall of Fame in 1992

He was inducted into the national Trapshooting Hall of Fame in 1995

He passed in December 2007 at the age of 91

Here's his Completed Careers obituary

 

Legal experts please help me with something here.

I read this as saying the HOF is donated to the DNR in the State of Illinois. Is it common for a 501c corporation to donate $2.1 million to a non 501c? I am assuming the State of IL is not a 501c.

And is it common place for a 501c corp to donate monies to another 501c corp for the same purpose?

Whereas lessee wishes to donate the construction of and to operate the Trapshooting Hall of Fame museum and offices pursuant to terms of this agreement, said Trapshooting Hall of Fame to be owned by DNR.

 

History Buff,

Great chatting with you yesterday.

How you can keep all your extensive files straight is beyond me.

Thanks for another history lesson !

Dave

 

Hugh McKinley and I were good friends, on his property there was a Steel Trap Built, Only one I have seen of them, we shot live birds/Pigeons, thrown out of a 1 Quart Paint Thinner can mounted on a single hand pulled spring trap.

Pigeons were caught at night in his barn/ some but not all of them.

Hugh said Gary I am taking my items out of the HOF if they move, and I believe he kept his word on it.

Hugh was a great friend and he never forgot a face.
He always congratulated me on my wins at Vandalia.

Several years later that Steel Trap floated up out of the ground after heavymrains, Club was run by Kenny Chappalear, and he raised Minks for Coats.
He always had a big Pair of Leather Gloves nearby to catch the Minks when they got out, and boy did they bite those gloves. Hugh also shot at the Grove City Gun Club on Friday nights and Sunday shoots, he shot a Grade V Ithaca Single Bbl trap and Model 12s.

Hugh was very vocal about keeping the Grand and HOF at Vandalia, he did his best to keep it there.

Hugh was the best of the best, and always a Gentleman, and always had that smile face.

His picture was on the front cover of Trap & Field several times.

Hugh McKinley was at the helm of Trapshooting during it's peak climb in membership, he was responsible for a great many achievements as listed in his Obituary posted by History Buff.

Yes we all know what happened under Mr. Acklin's
watch, sad times for all trapshooters.



Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

They can make the OLD ATA OFFICES a Shrine to their poor decisions.

Brass Plaque Reads
This Building Is
Dedicated to the EC & BOD
For Exemplery Poor Decisions

Gary Bryant Dr.Longshot

 

Doc, you are correct, Mr. McKinley did request the return of the items he had placed in the care of the Trapshooting Hall of Fame. And, they were returned to him. This happened when Dick Baldwin was the Museum Director.

When I read that Mr. McKinley stepped down as ATA General Manager after 10 years, I immediately assumed that he felt he had faithfully served the organization for a substantial period and it was time to let someone else manage the affairs. My second thought was maybe ill-health was the cause.

I was very surprised to find an old newspaper article from his hometown of Hillsboro, Ohio, where he gave his reasons for resigning.

 

Doc LS,
Nice of you to write this story about Mr. McKinley.

And HB, once again you have written documentation of the facts for us.

Thanks to both of you !

One would think that way back when, the EC would have taken notice of the possibility of a move in the future, and would begin a search for a possible replacement of Vandalia.

Like the old Boy scout motto: "Be Prepared"

Dave

 

Too bad Ohio did not make an offer that ATAcould not refuse. I just can't accept a handful of shooters got their way over a major majority of shooters, without having to put a gun to someone's head. The only way a conspiracy is kept secret is when there is only one person who knows about it, participates in it.

 

BTW, here is your opportunity and you should act quickly, I mean RIGHT NOW, for time is of the essesence.

Find some land holder with 4-5 sections of land, located on a major Interstate, 5 minutes from a major city of 1 million or more and 5 minutes in the other direction from an international airport in Ohio. Make sure the city has 2000-4000 hotel/motel rooms, major shopping, entertainment, movie, and sports activity, 4-5 trama hospitals, 600 restaurants or more and dozen camp sites and motor home parks able to accomadate about 1000 campers each.

Ask the landowner to donate the land, for ATA use with lease for 99 years at one dollar a year rent. Put the trap fields in the middle of the 4-5 sections to prevent encroachment.

If you don't do this now, your going to complain for the next 10-15 years about how rotten the ATA was for locating in New Jersry and how awful it is you have to drive clear across Pennsylvania to get to a unfriendly gun State.

 

I have never heard anyone suggest that the ATA homegrounds or the Grand American Handicap tournament be located anywhere other than in close proximity to the center of the ATA shooting population. And while the Grand American Handicap was held in New Jersey from 1895 to 1899 and again at Atlantic City, in 1922, this was during the period before the membership supported Vandalia, Ohio as their homegrounds.

The ATA has always asked the membership with assistance in locating potential sites for their relocation. They turned down free land in Missouri back in 1974. That land belonged to Mr. Wm. Fienup and was located at Linn Creek.

And, to be more accurate, the requirements called for about 2001 before the move to Sparta, Illinois were about the same as they were when the ATA announced they planned to move from Vandalia in 1974.



Enjoy Our History

 

The way I understand from previous posters, any location outside the State lines of Ohio is too far removed from the "close proximity to the center of the ATA shooting population."

Now is the time for Ohio shooters to correct the "mistake" made 10 years ago as a result of "poor judgement." Find the new location NOW, so we do not have to suffer another 10 years of lamenting about the horrible mistake made when the new location slipped through the fingers of the center of the ATA shooting location for a second time.

 

You would think ALL the Pro-Sparta people, most who have NEVER went, would NEVER make the same mistake as the dumb Ohio people and NOT GO and support the Grand and it's current location.

Get ALL the dreamers and GO spend your money. You know ALL the people who HOPE to go someday .... go NOW or forever listen to some tell YOU it is YOUR fault. Here is YOUR chance to make a difference .... ACT NOW ....

 

Still no answer to this question? Or was there a post? Were the delegates told the HOF was not to be owned by the HOF? Owned by Illinois.

 

Marsh Rabbit,

I have not seen the answer yet, so who really knows ?

Then again with all the banter on this thread, I may have missed the answer too.

 

Well I hope so, I was trying to find out if the HOF occupied property owned free and clear with title by the ATA or if HOF (and the ATA offices) were on property owned by someone else.......like this time.

Now as to the next time, after Sparta, if that be the case. If the ATA is to have a HOF (or offices) does it make more sense to own the property, perhaps off site, or act as squatters?

If we have lost 250,000 on the HOF, how much have we lost on the cost of replacing office space or does it matter?

Doc,

Don't forget, the present ATA offices are OFF SITE and in Sparta, completely owned by the ATA. At least they didn't put this on Leased land owned by the state...LOL

 

If the ATA is forced out of Sparta by the State not funding the WSRC I would hope the office building they bought could be disposed of so the office staff does not have to stay in the middle of no place, Illinois ... I do not recall hearing how much the ATA paid for the building but do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it being cheap or even reasonable for some reason ... I can't help but believe someone made a killing on that also in a round about way (wink, wink) ... Someone mentioned an investigation the other day, I got a feeling the time has come for that to happen and sort out the entire mess all at one time ... If anyone knows anything for sure please post it so we can figure out what and who we are dealing with in the future ... I cannot imagine an office building in Sparta being overly expensive and cannot find it any place in the minutes of meetings that have been posted ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I'll have to dig a little, but I seem to remember an LLC (ATA member from Texas I believe, I could be wrong on the state) bought, then resold the property to the ATA.

Somewhere 55, and 110 thousand sticks in my mind. Then the ATA had to install a whole new HVAC system in the building.

I'll do some digging WPT.

 

WPT ~~~

So far this is what I had on file. I am still trying to find out who PULL, LLC is.

AUGUST 6, 2012 EC MEETING

President Wagner notified the members of the Executive Committee that he has

531 received an appraisal on the property proposed to be purchased by the ATA at 1105 East

532 Broadway Street, Sparta, Illinois. He explained that the appraisal was prepared by Armin J.

533 Mountroy of Real Estate and Appraisal Services, Chester Illinois. The estimated market value of

534 the subject property as of August 14, 2012, is $132,843.00. This report would be given to

535 members of the Real Property Advisory Committee as well as the Past President’s Organization.

536 He reminded the Executive Committee that the purchase price for the subject property is

537 $100,000 plus any unpaid rent for the first year.

AUGUST 16, 2012 BOD MEETING

The property at 1105 East Broadway, Sparta, Illinois. He noted that the Real Property Advisory

419 Committee has approved this purchase, and the directors were sent written notice of the

420 decision of the Real Property Advisory Committee prior to the Annual Meeting. Subsequent to

421 further review and discussion, and upon Motion of Missouri Director Randall Crawford with

422 second of Idaho Director Bruce Baumgartner, with no further response or comment, it was

423 unanimously: 15

424 RESOLVED that the ATA exercise the option it has on the property at 1105 East

425 Broadway, Sparta, Illinois, pursuant to the terms of the lease agreement dated March 1, 2012,

426 with PULL, LLC, and the ATA.



(I think I got all of this correct.....)

 

So, we have to find out who PULL LLC is to find the connection ... That should not be to difficult being as they would have to be registered as a LLC someplace ... I don't know they we really want to know, hell yes we do ... Got a really sick feeling in my gut about that deal, a feeling like we got ripped off big time again ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,

In my search I found an old PM you sent me...WOW, that was in 2013 and you certainly hit the nail on the head long ago !

Here is an article I found from last year....

Interesting to do research and see what had been talked about in the past.

By the way, I have an email sent to a friend who has the info about that LLC....

Will let you know when I hear back.

2014-09-08
T17:11:00Z State looks at privatizing massive Sparta shooting complex Kurt Erickson Times Bureau The Quad-City Times
September 08, 2014 5:11 pm • Kurt Erickson Times Bureau
(0) Comments
SPRINGFIELD — Changes could be coming to a sprawling state-owned shooting complex in southern Illinois.

The Illinois Department of Natural Resources is asking consultants and vendors to weigh in on how to improve the 1,600-acre World Shooting and Recreational Complex near Sparta.

The information collected by the agency could be used to bring in a private company to run all or parts of the eight-year-old facility.

"The IDNR believes it would be advantageous to gather input from outside sources that are familiar with the needs of a world-class shooting event in the state..." noted a Sept. 3 memo to potential vendors.

The facility, which includes 120 trapshooting fields spanning more than 3 miles and 1,000 campsites, is home to a number of high-profile shooting events, including the American Trapshooting Association's Grand American, listed as one of the nation's oldest sporting events.

ATA executive director Lane Gibson said the organization has been assured that any changes wouldn't stop them from continuing to host their signature event at the site 50 miles southeast of St. Louis.

"Our contract with the state would still be valid and still be honored," Gibson told the Springfield bureau of Lee Enterprises newspapers on Monday.

IDNR chief Marc Miller said the agency wants to determine if there could be a cost savings to the state in terms of operating the complex, while at the same time trying to determine if such a change could boost economic development in the region.

"This will give us an idea of what the potential is," Miller said in an interview Monday.

He said a private vendor could put more of an focus on marketing and advertising.

"Those are things government doesn't do that well," Miller said.

Sen. Dave Luechtefeld, R-Okawville, said the IDNR's proposal could make sense if it means an increase in the number of people and events at the complex, which was built at a cost of $50 million.

"Government doesn't always run things the best," Luechtefeld said. "It needs to be run by people who know the business."

Governments like the State of Illinois have a mixed record when it comes to privatizing services.

Last month, Gov. Pat Quinn ended the state's contract with Northstar Lottery Group, after it fell short in its financial goals for running the lottery.

Said Miller, "I think that's a completely different situation."

He pointed to successful IDNR ventures such as the lodges at Starved Rock and Giant City state parks as examples of how the state can pair with a business owner to operate a state-owned facility.

"We do have experience with this. I'm confident we will do fine," Miller said.

Meantime, in addition to the camping and shooting areas, the facility also includes a 34,000-square-foot events center and additional buildings for vendors to lease during shows.

"The real secret of the place is to keep it busy all of the time," Luechtefeld said. "The more it is used, the more it helps the region."

 

This letter, especially seeing #5, has set in my craw for a long time...

READ #5 VERY CLOSELY !!!!! WHEREAS THEY WILL OWN THE PROPERTY.

Cannot get much clearer than that.

Whatever happened to that LAND SET ASIDE FOR MUSEUM AND BE DONATED by Peabody ?

 

Bill, Go to the THOF building post. I posted the info on the corp. PULL LLC. Very interesting. Did this happen after the land deal? And was the corp. set up for only this deal. It was an Ill. corp. It may be a dead end now. Roger C.