What needs to happen w/ATA

A drastic Change, guy's like me Gary Bryant, Neal Causaby, Dan Bonillas, Brad Dysinger, Dave Berlet, Ray Stafford, Steve Carmichael, Roger Coveleskie, Flyers are Best, Don Cogan, to hold an Emrgency Election, January 2023, at the Cardinal Shooting Center, to Elect a New ATA Staff, And Vote OUT present Staff Completely All At Once, January,7th & 8th, by LIFE MEMBERS Only, We will use an Early ATA Rules Book and Re-instate Life Members, Return Ownership of the Grand American Grounds, And Co-Ownership of the Hall of Fame, to the Life Members. I will Accept Temporary President the 1st year, Until we get everything set-up. I need Some more Names of Dedicated Accepted Life Members Willing to help me get everything set up for the Election.

GB..........................................DLS

 

Should we start a NEW Trapshooting Organization, Or Take command of the ATA by re-organizing it? By legal means doing it
with an emergency voting by Life members.?

GB......................................DLS

 

Can we use organization of ATA Gun Clubs to do a complete re-organization that will give all gun clubs a better money making
facilities for the clubs in a new direction? By Renaming, and Re-organizing and call me on my idea, 614-906-8494.

 

Doc let’s just say your idea works and all life members voting rights were reinstated and they vote to keep the ATA exactly as it is today. What are you going to do? Let’s be honest most ATA members, either don’t care or are uninformed of what’s going on, they just want to shoot.

 

Trapshooter 47 that's why we need to see what we need to find out what real dedicated trapshooters want. The ATA is in a terrible condition and failure is close, several clubs are going to be shut down by the US Government shortly.

GB..........................................DLS

 

That’s not what I asked, if the current membership is ok with what’s going on are you ok with that? I mean your talking about overthrowing the current leadership and your only talking to a small number of disgruntled people. I don’t like where it’s going but I’m not going to assume that everyone thinks like I do. It appears that even if a shooter doesn’t like Sparta some still shoot registered targets which is still feeding the ATA.
Which clubs are in danger of the Government closing?

 

We have one Club owned by their state and are shooting THEIR state shoot, not ATA shoots at all according to my information and it is confidential info on my part, and it is their money and awards. States are seeing the Benefits.

GB............................................DLS

 

‘47. Most trapshooters have left the ATA. The SCTP kids are members because they are forced. Registered shooting is strangled by our apathetic leaders. Ask your delegate?

 

I wonder if the ATA & Illinois are operating on legal grounds with ATA and ATA Membership, and legal grounds of donation of trapguns to ATA President w/ ATA Membership Funds, and possible Violation of .Federal Gun Laws, and Violation of Federal Tax Laws.

GB.......................................DLS

 

I agree the SCTP is in a Strangle Hold
GB..................................................................DLS

 

Doc I've moved on from trap shooting. I've decided to keep all the money I won over the years and not give anyone a chance at taking it from me. So what ever Gipson and Bradford have up there sleves doesn't concern me anymore. If I want to shoot trap I'll go to a local meat shoot.

On another note I priced Nitro 27's at Dunhams today and they were 15.99 a box before tax.

 

47, It is more than a few. A large majority voted against the move to Sparta, and we have lost over half of are registered shooters since the move was made.
Maybe it is time for a change. Roger C.

 

‘47. The ATA paid a marketing company big money to send out a survey. They ignored it. Survey says you are on your own now. We told you so.

 

Roger I agree the direction the ATA is going and have gone is not good. Moving to Illinois was a huge mistake. The point I was trying to get across is some shooters don’t care. It’s like at small gun clubs, as long as someone runs the club nobody cares about the work or business side as long as targets are flying. They want a place to shoot but don’t bother them with helping.
A truck load of WF is $24,600 with shipping, premium shells are $120 a flat. I hate to see the price the ATA will want at the Grand this year for targets. I for one won’t be there, but the prices will run off some of the average shooters, others won’t care as long as they have a place to shoot.

 

Roger maybe it is time for a change but it doesn’t and won’t happen on the internet. Doc posts stuff like this from time to time and a few add fuel to his little fire but 3 or 4 guys can’t overthrow the ATA. I don’t know the answer but hopefully someone figures it out before the ATA is a footnote in a history book.

 

Ammo costs, target costs, daily fees, fuel costs, hotel/camping fees combined with the biggest state Ca. restricting persons under the age of 18 from competing in shooting competitions , have all but dug the grave for the ATA--all that remains is for the leadership to jump in it

 

635G, The present and passed leadership has already jumped in the grave. In fact they dug it deeper, starting with Dave Kiser. Roger C.

 

im just a by-stander but I can say this....America is built on choices. ata is a monopoly. it needs competition.
CREATE A NEW ORGANIZATION, just like joe did with this website. the other place thought it was the only game in town and joe showed them otherwise.
just my thoughts for you to ponder. good luck which ever way you go.

 

I shoot at Sparta not because I want to, but if I want to shoot the Grand what choice do I have? I never could understand the logic of a presidency with only a one year term. How could anything ever get accomplished? I can't believe that the ATA had the shooters best interest at heart when they made the decision to move there.There definitely could be more done to better and further trapshooting's growth , but I'm not seeing it. My .02 for what it's worth. The way the vendors got treated due to Covid wasn't right either.

 

MOE, It all started to unravel when the B.O.D. started to work for the EC instead of representing the shooters in the state they represent. It is also the fault of the shooters for electing people that do not understand the position they are elected to do. THE B.O.D. IS SUPPOSED TO DIRECT THE EC, NOT BE A RUBBER STAMP FOR THEM.
The Grand is not grand anymore. The B.O.D. could have stopped the move to Sparta, They are a useless group of followers of the EC. Roger C.

 

We need a new organization. Maybe the organizers of the SCPT would be interested in a separating from the ATA and starting a new organization.
It would have to be some one in the SCPT to advance the idea of a new organization. Roger C.

 

Roger, just curious as to why you feel it would have to be someone in the SCPT?

Thanks

 

I've shot ATA for 10 years and don't have any experiences of Vandalia or the old days.
As a life member I would be eligible to vote.
What would the new ATA do differently that now?
Guss

 

Dobyns, They already have a lot of the infastructure in place.

 

Guss, The right to vote on what? Life members lost the right to vote on anything years ago. Roger C.

 

Gary said lifers could have a emergency vote to reorganization the ATA.
Is he speaking in tongues or has my reading comprention completely played out?
If we reorganize what will we get?
Guss

 

What infrastructure are you referring to?

 

The members and how to run a organization.

 

No new info is this just to increase numbers here?

Doc is OP. Not mods. -joe

 

I see you don’t know Doc or his history with the ata and their royal screwing of the life members. I'm pretty sure the last thing he thought about when he started this thread was increasing the numbers.

 

Perhaps. But I am a Life member and seem to have the same opportunities as I had when I was attending the Grand at Vandalia. What am I missing?

 

Roger C. How about a specific issue your group can solve?

 

What year were voting rights removed from life members?

 

Trapshooter47, Many years ago. You had no voting rights way before Vandalia closed.
A26A, getting the shooters to vote for men of honor as our state delegates. The B.O.D. is just a rubber stamp for the EC now.
Our delegates have no idea that they are to lead the EC, as it is now they believe they are to tell the shooters what the EC dictates.
Roger C.

 

So, How would you fix this? And hasn't ATA always been regulated by the BOD?

And how about a vote to fix this? Tell me/us what actually needs to change to make ATA more fair-er than it is currently​

 

Read my above post.

 

Roger. Since 87. I've shot 6 Vandalia grands, 1 sparta grand, several Indiana and Illinois state shoots, Mo state and fall shoots, a dozen Wisconsin, Michigan and numerous zone shoots.
In EVERY CASE, I paid my entrance fees, shot the best I could, won a few buckles. What's different today that needs to be changed? The ATA is still the ATA and the shoots are still the same. What is your specific recommendation other than more honorable men should be at the helm? And who are these more capable people you want in charge?

 

Who are these more honorable men and what would they do different?

 

You don’t think shoots are different today than when you started in ‘87? I signed up for the ATA in 1999 and went to a few Grands at Vandalia (and some before I signed up just to shop and be in awe of that place), and have also been to Sparta. My shooting is more East of where you are, but numbers are way down from when I started and there’s not nearly as much to win in options. I lost my interest in shooting trap, so I don’t have a dog in the fight anymore, but I think if things were more like they were in 1999, I’d still be shooting trap today.

 

So, solve it Justin. And the numbers are way down for options because shooters stopped playing them. Times change an we are witnessing change. On the other hand our Youth shootign in the Midwest is on the rise.

 

WE don't play the options simply because we feel our odds of winning are low. lower than they were as we were coming up thru the yardage ranks. Equipment is better, shells are better, the "Hot-dogs" are better than they were. As we get older qand shoot less, we realize that winning is unlikely and forgo the "betting" that used to go on.

 

For those newbies here not knowing “doc’ , you will be hard pressed to find a person that cares more about the sport of trapshooting.

The money is gone. The handicap system destroyed. The ATA spends most of its time trying to support a dead venue.

Meanwhile there is trapshooting life out there. The SCTP is doing great. Unfortunately the kids soon see a boring sport. For those that are talented and smart they see there isn’t enough prize money. It isn’t 1987. Sparta is a bore and a long ways away.

The delegates don’t care. But doc keeps fighting. Our NY Delegate doesn’t care either.

 

The first thing to do is get out of Sparta. Unfortunately, it's too easy for the fat cats to sit on their butts and watch the sport die. The Grand needs to be in Ohio and getting Cardinal Center in the mix is essential. Added traps and infrastructure including some sort of deal with additional capital provided by the ATA must be considered. Sure, it's farfetched but Cardinal Center shows the ability to make big things happen.

 

Orange. The money is gone because the regular shooters refuse to give their "option" money to the pros. Back in my day (prob yours too), low to mid 90s at handicap paid off. NO longer. The really good shooters are breaking over 96 all the time. I can't do that. NOr can 98% of the event shooters. So, we don't paly the options. The associations are still paying off what gets wagered but who can compete with those top shooters? Me? no. You speak for y9oruself.
And the kids will shoot and in some cases are already coming back. Th;e sport is not dead, jsut adjusting.

 

This thread is still about Vandalia and Sparta. Andy (my friend) proves it once again

 

I seemed to have missed my Vandalia comment, but Vandalia is long gone even though many of us miss it.

 

Roger I found some info on the voting rights. If what I found was correct voting rights were removed in 1955. That’s 67 years ago, most of today’s Life Members never had voting rights and bought a Life Membership knowing they had no voting rights. Why is Doc always bringing it up, I’m. Fairly certain he isn’t old enough to have joined prior to 1955. He wants something he never had and is never going to get. As stated before I thing the ATA is going in the wrong direction but once again it’s not getting solved on the internet or by 5 or 6 guys wanting to stage a coup with no plan.

 

47, THE SHOOTERS DIDNOT KNOW THEY HAD NO VOTING RIGHTS. until may years after they lost them. Roger C.

 

I never said about solving anything, I was pointing out that it is different now than when you and I started, you said it was the same. You’re wrong.

 

Roger not sure why your shouting but if you buy something without looking into it it’s nobody’s fault but your own! I find it hard to believe it took many years, once again as long as there is a place to shoot and it requires them to do nothing most shooters don’t care.

 

Voting rights

The voting rights were removed when the previous organization was dissolved. This was all done in order to make the move to Sparta from Vandalia. The new org was re-organized in Illinois. The life members did not get to vote on the move. They did not get to vote on the sale of Vandalia property.

I believe that since the membership was given a survey that concluded don’t move to Illinois, they did not think the ATA would do such a thing.

 

I bought my Lifetime Membership in 1976 and when I did I received a fancy piece of paper that said I was an owner of the ATA. It looked like a one stock note that you get from a utility company, one share and that I did indeed have voting rights. At 22 years old I didn't pay much attention and didn't know then just how big a nest of liars I'd gotten in with.

The biggest reason there is no money is that the targets are too easy today. They just had a non registered shoot at Williams, County in Ohio. The winner’s share was around 6 grand and that was with 85 shooters or so. The winning score was 96 and the 2nd was 95, no ties.

Trap Shooting was historically always about winning money and skeet about snobs getting todether to show off how much money they had with their high priced guns. That's what trap became in the 90's.

If you can't see the difference between 1987 and today you should take your reduction that A26A shows you need.

 

The handicap system is certainly destroyed because the 27 yd. line is outdated. The only real way to fix that is more concrete and please don't recommend longer, wider targets because most average shooters can't break a 96 in Singles.

Sparta is a dog that won't hunt and until that's fixed the Grand will remain a joke.

The kids are doing great until daddy refuses to pay the freight then the kids will declare they got bored with the sport and quit. Kids never had money to gamble on options before so that never changed. 99% of those subsidized kids will disappear and always have.

 

Why does everyone think the handicap system is broken? It’s exactly what they, Shooters and ATA want. Perfection and voluntary reductions. No money to win but you get a crappy trinket and your All American Points!

 

Gamblers go to casinos while current trapshooters love their trinkets.

 

47, All American teams are not what they were when I started to shoot trap. There are now over 225 people on the various teams. There were only 10 when I started shooting. 5 on first team,5 on the second team. The teams have been diluted to a great extent.
5% of the shooters win 100% of the options money. What makes you think the shooters are happy with that? Roger C.

 

Roger and Andy. Sparta and current ATA are NOT going to just give you their ship. You will have to continue competing and making Cardinal THE PLACE shooters want to go.

 

I'd go to Sparta if I could figure reason to be there. Maybe my kid will force me next year but I'm hoping not.

 

I signed up for life because I didn't want to mess with it every year.
Hearing all this grumbling abuot how things were better in 87 isn't going to persuade me to join in on dogging the ATA.
Just about everything was better in 87.
The ATA folks keep good records of everyones targets and give me the opportunity to shoot for the world championship.
They will answer the phone and help me when I need something which is more than you can say about the government and 90% of businesses.
Guss

 

Guss I don't understand your point. I can't remember Gary tooting the govs horn or any business for that matter. I don't know what year you became a life member but I did in 76 and Doc Longshot did years before me.

I won a couple of those North American Clay Target Championships when they had over 2500 shooters and before they called them World, which today have a lot fewer shooters than the ones in the 70's 80's and 90's, a name doesn't make something true.

The ATA's records were kept much better in those days and there were 100,000 members. You should treat yourself and read some old Trap & Field mags from those years and just compare then and today.

I don't think any of us care to persuade you one way or the other, maybe Longshot, but not me. I like to think of what I do is warn someone what's ahead. The average ATA member used to only be active 3 to 4 years. I don't know about today's members but since over half are kids I guess it's the same or less.

I really don't have anything in common with most ATA shooters today. I find them snobby and fakes. They like expensive guns, easy targets, and want to think they are better shots than they are. And did I mention first class whinners and bitchers about everything when they miss, never their fault. Not real impresive to someone my age who grew up with and shot against the best shooters in the world.

 

Brad your last paragraph is spot on!

 

47, my life membership certificate is dated September 19,1958. The 1st paragraph states that in the event of liquidation a distribution of its assets shall be made, the same to be divided equally among the then living life members. Paragraph 2 (word for word) The power and authority to sell, lease, hypothecate or exchange all of the property and assets of this corporation including its good will and its corporate franchises, upon such terms and conditions as may be deemed expedient for the best interests of the corporation, is hereby vested in (a)the Executive Committee acting with the written consent and approval of a majority of the board of Directors, or (b) the Board of Directors at any regular or special meeting.

47 If these changes were done before the date on my certificate was I issued a fraudulent certificate? Also how could these changes have been made without it being common knowledge to all members? I did not have the knowledge at that time that I was not getting what was paid for. At that time the Life memberships were $50. It has always been a mystery to me how the rights of the life members were legally taken away. Maybe you can tell me?

Dave Berlet

 

Dave. Either you did not have a case or you had a poor lawyer

 

Dave I have no idea, has any of that happened? Did the ATA liquid it’s assets, have they sold property, are the out of business ? Honestly I don’t know. It also says if I’m reading it correctly, I’m no lawyer, the BOD and the EC makes those decisions, not life members. The info I found was dated 1955 and spoke of Voting Rights.

 

THEY GUTTED IT WHEN THEY MADE THE CHANGE. The members were never notified. Roger C.

 

DeJa Vu

https://www.americantrapshooter.com...-to-life-members-voting-rights.384/#post-3252

 

This dude did a pretty thorough job explaining reduced participation in trap shooting:

https://www.americantrapshooter.com...allen-can-you-handle-the-truth.258/#post-1995

 

Roy D, funny how this happens every few years. Doc goes on a rampage and we all follow along. For awhile anyway, and in the end nothing changes.

 

Indeed. 95 months later, SOSDD.

 

Roy D, Only things that happen are the grand gets smaller, the all american team larger, the money in Gipson's bonus more and the ATA sheds members. That about somes up the last 95 months, just perfect.

 

Brad a person has to wonder if the same could be said if the Grand was still in Vandalia? Shells are $12+ a box, $42 a hundred registered targets and the same people running the Grand.
The older shooters that shot at Vandalia have great memories of the place but if they think it would be like it was before I believe they would be sadly mistaken. Numbers might and probably would, nope I know they would be better but not like 30 years ago. The average Joe can’t afford to shoot registered targets and at today’s prices some will struggle with small local shoots.

 

I couldn’t afford to shoot back in the 80’s and early 90’s. At least not with today’s rewards. I spent what little money I had preparing for the OSTA and the Grand. There was big money to be won. Lots of it!

I paid for another degree shooting trap. If the rewards were here, if the handicap system worked, and if I didn’t have to travel to a gun hate state, I could have made money with these prices.

It’s not about the price of the bullet. It’s the check for 50.

 

The Illinois grand has been a failure from year one, check the numbers. Might of, could bee, who knows. The facts say the move is the reason. One thing for sure is what Family Guy says. No Money Today. The Grands in the 70's were just as expensive when compared to today's inflation. The Illinois appoligists have over the years blamed the grands dismial numbers on everything but the Location when the shooters told the ATA not to move to Illinois because they wouldn't attend. The brain trust on the EC then (Bradford) said that Ohio and Pa shooters would be replaced with Mo, Ill, Neb, Iowa, shooters, never happened.

Even if the ATA would move back to the CC 15 years of failed leadership has killed registered trap shooting. Too many mid size clubs have closed accross the country. So I'd guess that about a 2500 shooter grand would be tops but there can be no doubt that it would be larger than Sparta. Just look at the number of SCTP shooters the CC gets.

 

It's been a pleasure chatting with you fellas. The only one I've met at a shoot was Dave Berlet. He was the commentator for 27 yd doubles at the grand.
Made me laugh outloud .....
One more question about life members voting and I will stop bothering you.
when was the last time there was an actual vote and what did they vote on and the outcome?
Guss

 

The last time there was a vote, was about moving to Sparta. It was a no vote For the Sparta location. They did it, anyway and now the organization is in free fall.
Roger C.

 

Roger did only life members vote on the move or was it a question put out to all members?

 

All members had a vote. They hired a company to investigate the move, they were told not to do it. The B.O.D. could have prevented it, but they are just a rubber stamp for the EC. There had to be some under the table moves involved, maybe. Roger C.

 

Has the results of the vote been published? Actual numbers of yes and no votes.

 

Many moons ago but maybe some hoarder can help.

 

Trapshooter47, Send a PM to history buff, He most likely has that info. Roger C.

 

I think I found the BOD vote, 49-6. Found it on a website in a post by a newspaper reporter. I’ll see if I can find it again.
I would like to see how the members voted, if it can be found. I’ll see if History has it.

 

The Sparta Group re-filed the NJ Corporation in Illinois discretely and w/o approval of Existing Life Members Illeagally to take our benefits, we need to Legally re-obtain our life memberships and have those that did it put into PRISON, there is SOMETHING HAPPENING that I will not discuss at this time, as I want it to go smoothly w/younger management, & only giving suggestions as needed. I know how it happened and who did it and how. PRISON TERMS ARE NEEDED.

 

ALL LIFE MEMBERS DID NOT HAVE A VOTE, VERY FEW VOTED, THE SAME FEW WHO MADE DECISION TO BUY THE SPARTA ATA OFFICE BUILDING. AND SET UP ILLINOIS OWNERSHIP OF MUSEUM, TWO WERE OWNERS OF TRAP CLUBS IN KANSAS. CAPS SAY I AM YELLING. I sure as hell was yelling.
I was totally against Sparta and all the LIFE members know how hard I fought against the Ohio ATA President getting elected, Propety he bought for ATA Grounds he profited from,& ATA OFFICE Profits he made for himself & Others KNOWN as _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.Our best OFFENSE was OHIO past OSTA President HUGH McKINLEY, who took all of his donations from the Vandalia MUSEUM before it was STOLEN and a very good friend of mine, and told me what he was going to do AND DID IT. He Fought Tooth & Nail to keep OUR GRAND in Vandalia.

 

There was never a LIFE MEMBER Majority Vote to Change Life Member Benefits of any kind., Who Bought Vandalia Grand Property in 1927 I Believe the date was?
DAYTON, OHIO ??????????Company my Memory has a hold of me.It made sure the Vandalia Grounds would be owned by the LIFE MEMBERS in their BY_LAWS AS WRITTEN, and Gauranteed on Life Member Certificates. Just as Dave Berlet Stated above.

 

Can't you, yourself file charges and get the ball rolling?
I always here about how you want things to change. It starts with one. File the charges and the rest will come.
I wish someone would do something instead of just ranting about it.
PITA here I come...

 

Cali, They must be filed in Ill. the attorney general in Ill. is protecting them. You know birds of a feather. Roger C.

 

As pointed out above, as of next month this same identical conversation will have been going on for eight years on this website. EIGHT YEARS.

Nothing impactful has been done, and likely nothing impactful ever will be done. After all, if anybody had a compelling, legitimate legal case to make, they would have brought it years ago. But they didn't. Including the OP, Longshot.

Ohio shooters, and the ATA Life Members got shafted. That's a fact and nothing is likely to ever change that. If by chance something does change it, post the facts and we can all celebrate justice. Until then, why piss & moan for a ninth straight year and pretend some white knight is on the way? It's over, Johnny -- it's OVER.

We're all going to be dead soon. That's a fact too. So go shoot some targets (non-registered if you prefer), make love with your lady, play with your grandkids or take your dog for a walk in the woods... but look toward the positive and try to enjoy what's left of life.

God Bless,
Roy D.

 

Communication is important. Twitter censorship cost a Presidential Election. The OP wants to start a movement. You cant challenge his love of the sport

 

[QUOTE="Roger Coveleskie, post: 144584, member: 392" the attorney general in Ill. is protecting them. You know birds of a feather. Roger C.[/QUOTE]
Roger: you really think the AG gives a rat’s ass about trap shooting and that they’re ‘protecting’ someone?

Hardly!

 

Roger: you really think the AG gives a rat’s ass about trap shooting and that they’re ‘protecting’ someone?

Hardly![/QUOTE]
The Assistant AG in Illinois made the ATA stop the illegal free gun giveaways. He at least made them vote on changing the by-laws. Many thanks to merlo.

 

The only reason the change was made was to make it legal, the members were against it, and the organization was not authorized to do it.
I wonder how many of the recipients of the $25,000.00 dollar guns filed the value on the income taxes. Roger C.

 

While it is a taxable event, I'm sick and damn tired of folk wanting the IRS to be whatever enforcer of justice that person thinks needs done. This is no different than the Left and the spineless right wanting to use the IRS against Trump. Or when the Kenyan used it against charities he did not like, or the Clintons against their political enemies.

You dont like what the ATA has become, its real simple. Stop shooting registered targets. Boom, its over for them. Yes, you loved it, and it was awesome, buts its gone just like the past. And I would guess 90% of those still shooting dont care two bits about the past glories of trap shooting. They are happy to get away for a weekend with their buddies and make noise and break things outside.

Im sorry your hobby is not as awesome as it was 50 years ago. If you look all the old time Men's clubs are down, so is bowling, pool etc.

The baby boomers were handed all the prosperity in the free world, and pissed it away to Wall St, and regulation in one generation. The ATA is just another example of it.

 

LORD MAKER, No one cares if you are sick and tired. you are not obligated to read any thing that is posted on here.
I personally do not like an incompetent few making decisions that are killing a damn good sport that I enjoyed. You can not blame the fall on inflation. This started before it became serious. Bad management is a major cause of trap shootings decline. We do not need examples, we need reform. Roger C.

 

I'm still waiting to hear about those changes needed to make ATA Trapshooting relevant again. Funny how I met with another longtime shooter yesterday who started when I did in 1963 and began registering targets in 1972. Not a bad shooter with over 25 200's in Singles too. Just like me he has all the average books from when he started and he also noticed how thin that average book is today. He commented how he approached our delegate with some advice and was shot down. The delegate reminded him that the powers at the top are very happy with the direction the ATA is heading and he got angry when he told him the party's coming to an end and the BOD is FOS. So, we elect delegates who've been around the game just a few years and we have high expectations that will never be realized. We both agreed the old timers that shot when we started (there were many) are mostly gone and the youngsters will leave when daddy stops paying the freight. We can only hope the game is evolving into recruiting thousands of kids annually that leave and are replaced by thousands more while us old timers complain about a game, we no longer recognize.

 

ROGER COVELESKIE, you are a bitter old man posting online. You are impotent to make a change so you rant about the old days.

 

I read Roger as giving a previous road map for success. The old days were damn good. And we sure as hell didn’t have it mucked up like this.

 

lord maker, You are correct, I am a bitter old man. I also speak up when I see incompetent people making blunders that drag down any sport or business.
I do not condone people that are supposed to care, just ignore or make excuses for bad judgement. I may sound like a bitter old man, but i do not make excuses for bad judgement by the EC. or for the B.O.D. they are supposed to be the watch dog for the organization, not a rubber stamp for the EC. Roger C.