Sub gauge barrels versus Tubes

Are the sub gauge barrels coming back for skeet and sporting clays?? Since you can get all gauges up to 32" from Krieghoff, with their pro sporter ribs and regular low ribs.

Anyone out there shooting Krieghoff pro sporter sub gauge barrels? If yes, what length are you using. I would guess 30" for skeet and 32" for sporting clays??

Tubes make the front end more heavy, but does keep the momentum. I currently use Kolar AAA sub gauge tubes 30" in a K 80 pro sporter.

 

You can buy 2 sets of ultralight tubes for the price of 1 barrel

 

simply put....yes.
people get tired of whacking bbls 100 times a match.

tubes make guns front heavy, sure; but thats why some makers have carrier bbls.
for the older guns, the weight was compensated with stock weights or recoil reducers.
most skeet shooters had adj combs added along with adj pads etc...so the front weight was never a problem with the sub ga tubes inserted. it all balanced out.
even when going back to the 12ga, makers had bbl weights to compensate.

 

I'm a carrier barrel fan.

 

I see Kolar has a Carrier BBL setup and Paxton sells new K80 carrier bbls with Briley tubes.

 

Your Kolar tubes are world-class. This isn't a "good vs. bad" choice. It's "excellent vs. excellent, but different." The best answer might be to find a buddy with a K-gun and a 32" Pro Sporter barrel and swap for a round. Your shoulders and eyes will tell you more than any forum ever could.

 

+1...^

 

never understood the weight issues on skeet guns.
most skeet gtuns are marketed to be heavy in comparison to field guns.
8lbs was/is considered normal.
99% of all skeet shooters balance and weigh (up) their guns.
everything from bbl weights, merc reducers, filling stock cavities with lead shot, heck, even wrapping golf club weight tape around bbls under the f.a.

and then they complain about heavy bbl tubes and get carriers.
odd indeed.

i personally think weight issues are just for older shooters who instead of buying a lighter gun, stick to their heavy designs and trim off the fat.

case in point, my m12 was weighed up to 9.5 for me.
now, i took it all out and shoot factory weight again.
my 3200 was 7.5 factory. tubed it, weighed 8lbs.
i added a merc, bbl weight, and spacer w/kickezz.....9lbs when done.
perfect balance. i couldnt feel the weight at all.

my k32 4 bbl is 8.2 factory. i added a merc and adj pad. it tilted butt heavy. i put a bbl weight up front. 9.5 now...but its still butt heavy. now you guys know why im looking for a 6oz kolar bbl weight!
if i put a 30" bbl on it, it balances out perfectly.

for those that dont understand why 30" bbls came into vogue...now you know.
the more junk people put on guns, the longer the bbls got.

my first k32 was a 26" purbaugh tubed gun.
i stuck a terminator pad and spacer on it fit to 14/3/4" lop and it balanced perfectly.
i swung like a charm and people with 28's were astonished.

hard to believe i lived when 26-28" was vogue.

 

The 30 Inch skeet barrels also changed the sight plane. Some feel the leads look shorter with longer barrels, the perception anyway. Plus the gun manufactures have to make changes to they can still keeping making money. If Wayne mays was still with us, he would probably be shooting his 28" Kolar.

 

yes, that was an additional benefit, but sighting has never been a problem on skeet guns.
it only became an issue when competitors started using full choke for skeet. then the sighting plane became more like a rifle, where shooters just placed the bead on the target instead of leading it. so having the longer plane made it more precise.
in other words, shooters got lazy.
sadly, the original purpose of skeet was to prepare for bird hunting and remembering leads.
not now. its just whatever it takes to win and beat the other guy with less effort.

 

A carrier barrel that is bored for a specific weight and fit with sub-gauge tubes seems ideal. I acquired such a set, a K-80 Bavaria Grade that was set up by Kolar for Ellen Nelms, 2001 NSSA Hall of Fame inductee. Barrel with tubes is just slightly heavier than unmodified barrel. Seems like an ideal approach. Many Skeet shooter's forget the original premise for the game of Skeet was "the gun game for the game gun".

 

Well stated. The carrier barrels are a nice concept to lower the weight of the muzzle and gun too.

 

absolutely, sub-gauge barrels are making a huge comeback. For a long time, tubes were the only practical answer because nobody wanted to drop $15k on a second barrel set. But the math has shifted.

I went through this exact dilemma myself. I was running Briley tubes in my K-80 for years, and they were fine. But I finally drank the Kool-Aid and bought a full set of Krieghoff sub-gauge barrels. Since you have a Kolar (which is a fantastic setup, by the way), you're already in that deep end.

 

Setting up a SC gun is a completely different ballgame than setting up a skeet gun.

Many of the modern lightweight 12ga barrels simply cannot have enough metal taken out of them to make a true carrier barrel from. This is the case for Blaser, Beretta Optima and HP, Browning DS, Krieghoff Parcours, and more. A lot of them can only lose about 1/2 the weight of subgauge tubes, so you're still going to be 7-8oz heavier than your 12ga barrel. So if you want a gun that swings, weighs, and feels like your 12ga barrel, a subgauge barrel is the only choice.

 

the key to shooting skeet has always been to get the bbls moving smoothly and to keep them moving smoothly with a minimum assist from the shooters swing. in other words, the weight of the bbl keeps the bbl from diverting from the path of the bird across the sky.
most skeet guns were 1/2 lb to a pound heavier than field grade guns, while semi autos suffered the most by remaining light.
lighter guns and faster bbl swings are favored in hunting where the target can move radically.
plus, new shooters with light guns tend to over compensate on swings in an attempt to acquire the target.

so, ever since the concept of the subgauge tubes for o&u's came about, the goal was to weigh UP the gun, yet, keep it lighter than a sub gauge BARREL from a 4 bbl set. it worked.
and, it was a cheaper alternative.
but the CG moved forward. so owners made all kinds of gizmos to bring back the CG by wrapping bbls under the forearms with golf club lead, and filling the stock cavities with lead or recoil reducers. it worked.
guns starting out at 7.5 or 8lbs, became 9-10lbs.

all of this was exactly what skeet shooters wanted.....a heavier gun.
but shooting that pesky 12ga event w/o tubes caused the CG to shift and overall weight went down.
it was common for pro's to use 12ga semi autos weighed up to match their o&u. it wasnt rejected since the 12ga semi auto reduced recoil and got real men thru the 250 bird marathon for the main and 100 doubles events.
yet, for those who wanted to endure the pain with a 12ga o&u, tube makers made external bbl weights to match the weight of a tube set installed.
it worked.
the market swung towards tube sets and 4 bbl sets fell out of favor. owning a tube set was cheaper than a 4 bbl set and that easily drew the crowd.

fast forward to the current world.

now, the trend is light guns for skeet since bbl lengths both (bbl and tubes,) have exceeded 30".
to get a smooth swing no longer requires weight to keep it going, the longer bbl does it.
and as the length continues to grow, the need for less weight increases. THAT is why carriers were invented for tubes.
problem:
1. cost. the whole purpose of owning tubes was to reduce the cost of the set up. add the carrier bbl. cost increased.
2. having tubes and carrier does not change CG. so, if a shooter wants to balance out the gun, counter weight behind the receiver increases, defying the whole purpose of having lighter guns. you end up with a 8-10lb gun again, only now it has 30-34" bbls. makers are even trying alloy receivers to compensate.
3. 4 bbl guns are returning. people are getting tired of tapping, fitting, and smacking tubes in and out. the concept of taking off and popping on a complete bbl is becoming attractive.
4. multi gauge events are becoming popular in s.clays and trap. a need for fast swinging bbls are making light guns more popular. it is predicted that shorter bbl guns will return.

hope this ads to the discussion.
bob kuczynski
skeetmaster tubes inc.
retired







.

 

Well stated Bob. I always liked sub gauge barrels..they would be nice for sporting clays use. I like tubes for skeet. Too bad K 80 barrels are $7000 each.

 

Yea I'm contemplating contacting Ecthen's for 1 of there combo guns in 28 and 410ga. Sub gauge shooting is definitely the direction I'm moving in. Taking my 410 to the club tomorrow to play on Skeet, 5 std and maybe some SC. Will see.