ATA in Black and White -Shaw - 20 pages Documented

This story needs no description. It is a documented event.

 

History never ceases to amaze me! Neither does CYA.

HAP

 

So these people answer to nobody. Internal auditors fired at the whim of those being audited. Is that the way it works in the corporate world?

 

Who in the hell corrupted these people? This could not have happened overnight. And how do we get rid of them?????????? Maybe the ATA should be abandoned. I'm not sure it can be fixed. Roger C.

 

So you have documents dated two years ago, possible crime committed? Must have been at least two BOD meetings since the date, was it discussed? What was outcome of discussion?

This should make you clowns happy, I asked the Aministrator to cancel my access here. I am gone. There is no such thing as a free discussion forum on this site, nothing but a bunch of thin skinned crybabies.

Good bye

 

Azcotrap,
Bad grades? Momma take the computer away again?

 

Azco can't accept the real world out there.

Crybabies ?

Nope, just want to make sure another wrong does not occur !

 

Money and power corrupted these people, I think its about time for an investigation into the dealings over the past 12 years at least to see what can be discovered and if anything was on the up and up ... The Cash Cow has landed and it appears these people are in it for all they can milk out of it ... I seriously doubt this was the intent when the ATA was formed by men of Honor and Integrity ... The member have to bind together to keep it together once the shit hits the fan ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The problem with 'fixing' the "ATA" is they have mastered pandering to keep the cash flowing their way.

Look at the 2016 All American 'team' list ..... is it soon to have 3rd, 4th, or even 5th 'teams' in each category ????? Look at the total "points" on that page and do some rough math on how much money the "ATA" makes.

You can pick your yardage with no proof of shooting ability, or lack of. Pro-18 or never-was-27, take your pick, it is there for the asking.

When you have pandering on that level there are too many people happy to spend a few dollars, get their way, and stay quiet.

 

I would be more than willing to donate ($) if we can find someone who could pursue this as well as other allegations of corruption to get this mess straightened out for once and for all ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Azco,
Please let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out maybe it will knock some sense into your head as they both seem to be in the same place. Now you have a nice day. Roger C.

 

AZCOTRAP, sorry to see you leave!

The play ground bullies are in full force again today!

 

Gipson isn't going to post here either I hear. lol

 

Firing the internal auditors basically says there is a cover-up ongoing and people are trying to stay out of federal prison.

 

Looks like someone or many may end up in jail along with ATA losing it's 501(c) status.

 

Damn, there goes the neighborhood

 

Why in the world did you have to ask anyone to cancel your access? All you have to do is NOT log on.

Kinda like the guy that has to voluntarily sign a form telling the casino to NOT let them in because they have a gambling problem.

 

Or talking to a poster who's not here anymore.

 

File complaints with the IRS, the Securities and Exchange Commission and local FBI offices are a place to start.

 

Lady T, I have heard rumors that your plan of action has been discussed. Roger C.

 

He's here, he can't help himself.

 

The gov't can help on this one.

 

If the above documents were posted on the Kool-Aid site, I would bet they would last about as long as a snowball in hell!

 

The King of the Kool Aiders ( grntitan) would take it down PRONTO you can believe that much ... Hear he can't give his 2 days clinics now that the WSRC is locked down ... How to make the 20 yard line in 10 years or bust ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

paBob, If it were any thing but a gun related organization the Gov. would be a good choice. That should be the last place to go. It probable would shut down the organization. Roger C.

 

Smoking gun? Could be. How many more smoking guns are out there?

 

Oh God, this is classic EC behavior. Ask me about the "Trophy Committee" sometime, and why Trapwife was appointed.

 

Jim I'm asking so please tell. Brad

 

Ditto on Brad's post.

Could be an interesting story.

 

Inquiring minds would like to know ... Now, you got our attention ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well since you asked. I was appointed the chair of the trophy committee and as such I setup meeting dates by teleconference and the use of e-mail. I soon discovered that Connie and I were the only participating members…SURPRISE. So after many unanswered requests for input we became the onerous task of “refreshing and updating” the trophy selection with no additional budget. I didn’t know it at the time but I made a rookie mistake in thinking each Satellite Grand should be treated the same and have the same trophies. Right?

Strike one! As the Satellites began so did my phone, as a lot of All Americans travel to the various satellites and were very upset at winning the same trophies over and over. I was told to fix it. The problem is these things are ordered well in advance and the train has left the station. I was told they don’t want a man on a stick they want cash or trophies they can convert to cash. Here’s an interesting fact you should know: All Americans at that time made up 7% of our membership but got 95% of the attention.

Strike two! While attending the Shot Show in Florida I was pulled aside to a small eating area by two EC members for a trophy discussion. As my wife sat in disbelief at an adjoining table these two began hammering me over the now famous “not so bronze eagle trophies”. I told them I personally called the supplier before purchasing them and was absolutely assured they were solid bronze and made in Chicago by the same company that makes the Oscars! Then came one of the many revelations from on high! They realized I was buying trophies from many different vendors and they blew a gasket.

They told me I screwed-up and was supposed to give the entire ATA trophy order to one company! A company that was up until recently owned by one of these guys! WHAT? They said they (EC) had prior to my arrival, changed the methodology and decided to go with one vendor who could do it all. They were sick and tired of belt buckles, aluminum plates, and leather!

Let’s take a little break and let my blood pressure come back down. Fact: one of these guys is also the chair of the marketing committee and heavily conflicted, something the EC simply waived in an executive session. I still don’t know how you waive a conflict of interest?

I told them I am not having this conversation and refused to place all orders without quotes to one special company! Then they told me it was okay to do because they went out for quotes and only this one company replied. I told they if that is the case and this was clearly communicated with the request for quote simply give me the refusals for future reference and I’ll proceed as you wish. I never saw them.

Strike three! I was later told they were naming a new chair to the trophy committee and it would be someone well known and respected. On the day of the first teleconference I was told to stay off the line and even though I’m shown in the minutes as a member I was not to participate.

Did I mention the “not so bronze eagles” came from the special single source vendor……….

 

Thanks Jim!! The more we learn the more "white-washing" of the org. has taken place. A controlled progression up the ladder so to speak and ball-players only are invited. It's high time this is stopped in it's tracks!

HAP

 

"Integrity", you either got it or you don't, sounds like those on the EC and some of the BOD do not ... Thank you very much Mr Jim Thompson for shedding yet another light on what was once a great organization ... I got a feeling it won't be long and the cushion (12 Million) will be whittled down to nothing ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The wheels are churning, and my blood pressure just went through the roof !

We are once again finding out just how honorable our EC is folks...Anyone else have an interesting story to tell ?

When all this information is compiled, I suspect the EC (and past EC) will wish they had treated people in a more honorable manner....

BTW, I guess they found another "Puppet" who will bow to all their wishes.

Thanks Jim for coming out and letting us know. We need more like you, Paul Shaw, Bob Glatz, and the others who have had dealings with the EC, and have let the membership know just what behind the scenes antics these damned fools are pulling on us...

They believe we are "Just dumb ass shooters". But with lots of help, we are beginning to see how they have thrown curve balls at us to throw us off track on different things, BUT we have found out the true stories.

By the way...Did I ever tell you about one high profile Past President who told me I was: "Eloquently Vocal" ? ( My wife and I damned near died of laughter. )

I told him "NO, I'm just Joe Schmuck who is attempting to see the right thing is being done in our organization, and if we all run and hide the wrong things will just continue". I mentioned I certainly got a "Freshman education" on how Cheaters Win in this organization.. ( I was new then). He was at a loss for words.

I should care less anymore. This ATA crap has gotten the best of me and I don't feel I want to waste the money shooting ATA games. So I only go and shoot a limited amount of registered any more. I still love the sport, but the destruction within the upper management is destroying the organization.

 

I enjoy shooting but have stopped shooting registered because I am not interested in supporting the EC and or those of the BOD who are part of the destruction of the once great organization by supporting the EC's agenda's without questioning motive ... There has to be some means of legally breaking down the EC and exposing them openly for what they are and what they are doing in reality to the membership ... I am open to any and all suggestions of what to do or how to do it to get the ball rolling to curtail the actions of the EC and those of the BOD who are responsible ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

To keep things in perspective, I never witnessed any illegal activity, if I had I would have reported it. Poor decisions, immorality, lack of oversight, drunkenness, lying, womanizing, conflicted interests, misuse of authority to benefit some and punish others, and the mere appearance of impropriety is not necessarily unlawful. We simply had nothing in common.

Remember, you the membership elect delegates who elect the executive committee to do your bidding and operate the ATA. Right? So they have your permission and pretty much unfettered authority do as they will in matters concerning the business of the ATA. As witnessed by the dismisal of the Accountblity committee above. For example only, they could appoint their buddy to run the Grand American and pay him say $100,000 or whatever they wish. That’s extravagant but not illegal. As the controlling body they could allow him to take home all the leftover guns, shells, and trophies. As outrageous as it sounds they have the authority to do it and it would not be illegal as long as they approve it. Right?

 

"Poor decisions, immorality, lack of oversight, drunkenness, lying, womanizing, conflicted interests, misuse of authority to benefit some and punish others, and the mere appearance of impropriety is not necessarily unlawful." (Quoted from Mr Jim Thompson's posting) We simply had nothing in common.

Makes you feel warm and fuzzy all over, kind of liked you pissed your pants in a freezing blizzard knowing all is not well on the home front ... Talk about lack of ethics and integrity, and they wonder why no body showed up ... Lynn "Fantastic Direction" Gipson is their right hand man and talking head (Bobble Head) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The really sad thing about Jim's story is it has happened over and over for years. The AA points thing is important, remember I was an All American for years but at no time did I think the ATA should be driven by AA points insanity. You had wealthy men with expensive trap guns with no talent so they made the rules easier and easier so they could break em all and feel good about. Bull Shit is what it was, cheapean the sport. After reading Jim's account you might realize why I don't like those guys and have no respect for them. Liars, thieves, cheats, and all the other things all fit, I've seen it and spoke up about it but have been ignored for years, but I guess it's getting hard to ignore now. Brad

 

Just to clarify my comments above, I’m not taking issue with the AAs I truly respect their ability. I’m making a point about how difficult it is to select trophies that makes everyone happy. We even looked into a catalog system where the winner could choose a trophy or cash but it couldn’t be done in a timely manner. Nobody wants to wait a month or so after an event to receive their trophy.

 

"the mere appearance of impropriety is not necessarily unlawful" ....

It IS "unlawful" for "a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity" .... there are very tight rules on how they can now act, and spend money, as a "charitable entity" .... the "members" may have given control, but tax laws have not.

If anyone wants to stop this, start here, http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

 

You're doing the talking but want someone else to do the dirty work?

 

I know how you could have made at least one guy happy.

"They told me I screwed-up and was supposed to give the entire ATA trophy order to one company! A company that was up until recently owned by one of these guys"

 

Any organization regardless if it's a 501(c) (3) or not that has a governing body voted in office by its membership should have bids from different companies when spending the organizations monies. NO exceptions!

 

I have no problem doing any "dirty work" that I want to do.

 

Karla sent me this in an email so I'm posting it (Ann is) for her like she asked. Brad

Hey Brad, I got a phone call today and learned that my sign on name was mentioned by Jim Thompson in his comments about ATA trophies. He alluded to a story about why/how I got appointed to select trophies, but he never told my story. I am not a registered member on that forum, but I would like to tell my story, could you post for me?

The "not so bronze" eagle trophies were the beginning of my association with selecting trophies for the ATA. I was sitting in Leo's golf cart at the SW Grand in San Antonio and we had just picked up trophies, including a "bronze" eagle. Our cart was parked beside Bruce Reed's (we were watching shootoffs). Leo pulled out his eagle by the wing tip and the tip broke off in his hand. Even Leo could not have been able to break a solid bronze piece with his fingers. This sparked a discussion with ATA President Reed about the quality of trophies and the lack of variety (Leo ended up winning 7 "bronze" eagles that year). The company that supplied the eagles was owned by an ATA EC member. After the eagles were determined to have been misrepresented by the manufacturer, all winners were eventually reimbursed $50 for each eagle. The cost of the eagles to the ATA was high enough that it was a logical assumption that they really were bronze, not just coated with bronze filings.

At the time, I was very vocal to President Reed that I was not happy with the current trophy choices. He asked if I would be willing to take on the job to make improvements/changes and I accepted. I sent out invitations to over a dozen different companies and requested bids for awards for the entire upcoming year for ATA supplied trophies to 50 state shoots, 5 zones, 7 Canadian tournaments, 10 satellite grands and the Grand American. By April of the next year, I had a proposal for the selected items and it was submitted to the EC at their meeting, at the SW Grand in San Antonio.

While all my initial selections were within budget, a few minor changes were made, due to personal preferences by EC members. I did not order from the company owned by the EC member. I felt it was a conflict of interest. My proposals were approved and trophies were ordered. I did it this way, each year.

I continued to work with Connie at the ATA office. All the other members of the so called trophy selection committee were unresponsive to any efforts on our part. I continued to search for ways to try and keep a balance in the selection between shiny trophies that sit on a shelf and awards that could be useful. While at various gun clubs across the country (I went everywhere Leo went, so we got to a lot of clubs.) I made it a point to talk to shooters about what they wanted to receive. Trophies are very personal and also very regional. Winners on the east coast had very different ideas of what a good trophy should be than winners on the west coast.

Due to the complex ordering system, all the state shoots received that same trophies, all the zones got the same items but they were different than the state shoot trophies, all the satellite grands gave out the same trophies but they might be different than the zone trophies, etc. The Grand American required almost 2000 trophies and this was before the extra new classes were added.

I worked at Membership Services and the trophy counter for 4 years at the Grand. While I can't speak for any time other than when I was there and in charge of those two departments, I can assure you that all trophies not picked up were packed away to be available for pick up at the next year's tournament. I know this to be true because I packed them at the end of the Grand and I unpacked them the following year so they could be claimed. Also, the guns that were given away at the Grand, were all claimed. I know this to be true because I helped all the winners fill out FFL forms.

I estimate I worked on trophy selection about 10 hours per week, for 50 weeks of the year. I used my own computer, phone and home office, all at no cost to the ATA. I was not paid for any of my time, except for the hours I was allotted as an employee at the Grand tournament. While I was budgeted a set number of hours at the Grand, my actual hours far exceeded the Grand's budget, so I donated those hours. And speaking of donations, by my last year of trophy selection for the Grand, I had several top awards donated (FREE) by various companies.

At the last Grand where I was an employee, I was brought into the EC meeting and questioned about my trophy choices. We could not come to a mutual agreement on how trophies should be selected so I resigned my unpaid position. After that, the ATA hired a full time employee who is now responsible for buying.

During my years of working in the events center at both the membership desk and trophy counter, I did so with help from 2-3 other employees, trying to keep labor costs at a minimum. The current number of employees that do the same work at the membership desk and trophy room at the Grand has increased while the hours of operation at the trophy counter has decreased.

I very much enjoyed by work with trophies, otherwise I would not have put so much time and effort into it. Leo never did understand what all the fuss over trophies was all about, he really didn't put much importance onto the actual trophy. While he shot for the love of the competition, he also kept a close eye on his bottom line. High pay offs were more of a trophy to him than any shiny pickle plate (that's what he called them). One exception were the championship rings from the Grand, those he was very proud to have won.

Karla Harrison (trapwife)
karlaannharrison@hotmail.com

 

"all winners were eventually reimbursed $50 for each eagle" .... ???????

So the "ATA" owes me 50 bucks for each of the trophies I do not like ?????? I have some to cash in, can someone direct me where to take them because they suck.

"Leo ended up winning 7 "bronze" eagles that year" .... "all winners were eventually reimbursed $50 for each eagle" ... WOW is there a charitable 'fund' for this type of expense ???????????

 

What asinine logic "reimbursed" ..... So you "win" something that has no cash value and you feel you are out some value and need "reimbursed", which by the way infers that is money you paid and need back. Some need someone to proof-read what they want others to post.

I would like to see the list of "all winners".

 

User 1.

RE-read Karla post, you know the part about $50.00 for the reimbursement of "each eagle".

You should call Karla and personally apologize for being a "jerk".

Also when you copy and paste use the whole sentence instead of just what you want to give it a totally different meaning than what was said.

 

The problems far exceed picking out trophy's, it is the way it was done not what was done, much the same thing with the relocation to Sparta, Ill ... The ATA at one time had an EC member who owned and or operated a business that supplied trophy's obviously without the benefit of having to bid on the project, per what Jim Thompson said ... That can be nothing short of a conflict of interest and should raise some red flags unless they condoned such practices which again is obviously fact ... The EC and some of the BOD are buttering each others bread and its costing the membership dearly in more ways than one ... What was once an Association of trap shooters with Integrity and sportsmanship concerns has reduced itself to a cash cow for those (EC and some of the BOD) locked in because there is no vote other than a closed vote of the Good Ol" Boys Club (EX: standing in line for the new gun) and the members not even having a say about it without some interference ... Lynn (The Talking Head ) Gipson did not get his position because of his ability's, he got it because he has been accepted as one of the Good Ol'Boys who knows enough to keep his mouth shut no matter what he knows and spread ridiculous claims of heading in "Fantastic Directions" and claims of the WSRC generating between 10 and 12 million dollars to the local economy and or region ... Rest assured the State of Illinois knows exactly how much money the WSRC has generated and nothing he can say will alter their figures which are based on actuary's, not a figure pulled out of thin air to make it look impressive or based on what he was told to say with no way to substancitiate the claims ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Karla's discussion of those trophies "misrepresented by the manufacturer" or whomever, reminds me of another piece of this story that has not been told. If I am correct, the misrepresentation of those "eagle trophies" was brought to the attention by one of the ATA's (and State/Provincial Associations) long-time well-known and trustworthy vendors. The vendor did not care that he was not chosen to provide trophies but was merely pointing out that the ATA paid too much for a trophy that was not of the material it was supposed to be. I remember the vendor telling me about Leo breaking a trophy and discovering it was not made of bronze.

That vendor had graciously agreed to assist me in appraising the silver trophies, belt buckles and anything else he was capable of assigning values to. This project was initiated by me for insurance purposes when the first decision was made to place the THOF museum collection in storage. Nothing was leaving the building without a thorough audit, valuation and proper insurance.

That vendor (who I hold in high esteem to this day) failed to show up to help just prior to the Grand to value our trapshooting artifacts. I was unable to establish contact with him and when I saw him at the Grand he said he would talk to me about it later.

When we finally talked, he told me that because he brought up the issue with those bronze trophies to the ATA, he was black-listed and the ATA would not purchase any trophies from him for a year. He apologized to me personally, but said after being banned from submitting estimates for his trophies, he just did not feel very good about the leadership and just could not make himself travel to Ohio to assist with my project.

I told him I understood completely and that I didn't think I'd feel much like helping under those circumstances.

And now the rest of the story: I contacted this vendor again to ask if he knew of anyone who might be willing to help me with placing values on the silver items in the THOF collection.

He said he would see what he could do. Then, he flew into Vandalia, spent a few days at the museum and assigned values to not only all the silver items, but many other items which he was familiar with including our entire glass ball collection which was valued at about $10,000. He refused reimbursement for his travel, his hotel invoice and his food. His time, expertise and expenses was his donation.

It is because of this vendor and sever other trapshooters who are collectors of memorabilia, the entire collection of over 5,000 items received values for insurance purposes and this did not cost the Trapshooting Hall of Fame one cent.

This is the story as I recollect it and if I've misstated anything from memory I'm certain someone will correct me.

 

The only thing missing from the above posts is the name of the owner of the trophy company. I'm sure there would be no ramifications from posting company name and owner. Would some one please reply I'm asking for the name. Roger C.

 

Well Leonidas read this and try to understand .... "all winners were eventually reimbursed $50 for each eagle" .... since when should a "winner" be "reimbursed" ???????????

I have some belt buckles that I have worn and the plating wore off ..... I need "reimbursed" by someone I guess.

A "jerk" I may be .... but hold your breath waiting for that "apology".

 

Because they were NOT the items that they were advertised to be.

 

Leonidas...
Were the items advertised as for sale? Do you have a link or copy of the items advertised for sale? What was the advertisement you speak of?

 

The "winners" DID NOT buy them, they WON them. How hard is that to understand ??????

 

FG, Read the second paragraph in Brads post regarding Karlas letter.

User, correct, but what they won wasn't the quality item advertised, it was a cheap version. Is that so hard to understand???????

 

Well Leonidas you are showing your shooting skills and knowledge .... I have never won, or seen, a trophy "quality" guarantee. You take what they give and keep it or throw it away, unless you are Royalty then you get "reimbursed" for something crappy you can not turn into cash.

 

I'm sorry Roger, but the vendor conducts business with the ATA and did not want the story out in public. Perhaps I went too far . . . but I felt this information should be known and I wish I could name the vendor but I just cannot unless I'm given the OK. There are a few others who are aware of this matter and I believe they too were asked to keep it under their hat so no further harm would come to the gentleman or his business.


I believe the issue was that the ATA purchased these trophies from a company in which an E. C. member had a very close association. They were advertised as being made of bronze but were found to be some sort of plaster material and valued at much less than the ATA should have paid for them.

Reportedly, the trophy committee was either required to make the purchase or the task was taken away from them and the trophies were ordered by an E. C. member. Many people believed the lesser quality was known to the ATA and should never had been purchased.

Just one more story of many that upset those of us who want our leadership to display integrity instead of deception.

 

HistoryBuff this needs to be a little more clear for some .... "They were advertised as being made of bronze but were found to be some sort of plaster material" ....

"They were advertised" to the ATA for purchase, or "They were advertised" in the shoot programs where they were offered as trophies ???????

If the shoot program "advertised" pure bronze high value trophies that is one thing, the ATA purchase being mislead is another.

 

User 1,

I honestly do not know the answer to your questions. I was trying to recall the few details that were shared with me several years back, but I have no personal knowledge of the matter. I doubt the shoot program specified what the trophies were and/or what material they were constructed of.

I believe the ATA paid for trophies that were supposed to be bronze but were not. It is my understanding that Leo Harrison and others learned they were not bronze. My recollection of what I was told was that Leo intentionally broke one apart to prove what the material was but his wife Karla (who is better qualified to speak on the issue) has stated "Leo pulled out his eagle by the wing tip and the tip broke off in his hand." I would consider her version to be more accurate.

 

Thanks for the answer HistoryBuff,

If some want to hone their shooting ability to the highest levels and make it pay, great for them. But they are no more entitled for "reimbursement" for a poor ATA decision than the everyday Joe-Nobody.

 

I think Karla disagrees.

 

I was never under the impression that those winning fake bronze eagles ever asked for reimbursement. I always thought the ATA made that decision on their own which I believe was fair since part of the entrance covers the cost of trophies. I could be totally wrong and would appreciate anyone with first hand knowledge informing me that those shooters winning the "eagle" awards did in fact make a reimbursement request.

 

I would imagine if they were advertised as "Bronze" and it turns out they were not, some kind of refund would be in order ... If the ATA made the purchase under the impression they were "Bronze" and not some plaster coated with bronze color the ATA should of got the money back upon returning the Eagles ... Some people would display it proudly as a win if it was made out of manure, others who have won many would probably not ... I seriously doubt there is any award (rings, plaques, trophy's, platters, etc) Leo Harrison had not won in the course of his shooting career even though he might not of won any certain event (Grand American Handicap) ... He probably had more then one addition put on the house to display them all ... There should be a Trophy with his likeness made up to be awarded as Handicap Champion or High Overall at all of the bigger shoots for a year so they would be something really special and a very limit production ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

So day after day something new appears to remind everyone of the underhanded misdeeds of those elected to watch over our sport. Sort of like Chinese water torture. The part I always find interesting is the ongoing conversations in which a shooter is always trying to find all guilty except their friends who were involved at the time. If something was done wrong and your friend was serving on the EC at the time he was either involved or so woefully ignorant he shouldn't be allowed out of the institution,let alone handle a shotgun.

 

How many more under the table deals are going to have to be revealed before the authorities are called in to correct this band of miscreants? There are liars, crooks and down right thieves associated with our organization. It is time for a cleaning out process. Starting with the top and going all the way down to the delegate level.
Then there should be qualifications imposed on the new state delegates. They should be nominated before the day of the election, and their acceptence of the nomination printed in the state shoot program along with their names. That way the voters could check up on their qualifications.
I think this would be a good start to house cleaning the offices.
It would also be a good idea to check and see how many laws have been broken and proceed with the penalty phase of the present and past offenders. That is the only way to insure we will never have this problem again. It is time to make all men responsible for their own actions. Roger C.

 

User 1,

The ATA most likely knew about the scam. One of their own was part owner of the company that made the trophies if the info that I received is correct. If they did not know they should have made a fraud charge against the perpetrator of the scam. It is getting very hard to separate the honorable men in that group. If there are any left with honor they should step forth and clear the air, for they are being grouped with the men of no honor. I for one would not stand for my reputation to be sullied by association. Roger C.

 

The EC member who was also the trophy provider is Dead now, you can figure out who it was, but the other EC members who authorised this are still very much alive and kicking and continuing to lead the ATA in a FANTASTIC direction. Brad

 

Brad,

dead or alive he was still a thief. What he did is called fraud, and his name should be recorded for all to see. Is he in the hall of fame yet? Or is he a candidate for the Hall of Shame? As many of his co-conspiritors should be, they know who they are. Maybe some of that over charge was spread out over the masses that knew about scam. Roger C.

 

Does anyone know how the trophy "reimbursement" was handled ??? The "vendor" paid the ATA, who paid the "winners" ??? The "vendor" paid the "winners" ??? The ATA paid the winners, without a "reimbursement" from the "vendor" ???

I can see "the mere appearance of impropriety is not necessarily unlawful" ... being "unlawful" under the tax code that they operate under for "a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity".

Commingling of funds for a "charitable entity" is not something the IRS has a sense of humor about.

 

I can see "the mere appearance of impropriety is not necessarily unlawful" ... being "unlawful" under the tax code that they operate under for "a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity

My point is this, in our country one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. I saw no proof of guilt only questionable issues that I was pursuing until I left the organization. I made it clear I would not sign off on the audit if it didn't produce any findings and those finding were not resolvd. I was gone witin 30 days.

As to the question about the $50 dollar “rebate” it was decided that since the value of the eagle trophies were determined or negotiated to be about $50 less than the value we received. We (the ATA) were given back $50 for each eagle and we believed that money should be passed on to the recipients of the trophies. It was the right thing to do.

Jim

 

"we believed that money should be passed on to the recipients of the trophies. It was the right thing to do." ....maybe ....

The "right thing" vs 'legal thing' under the tax laws that govern a "a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity" may put some in a very uncomfortable position.

 

There were monies set aside or budgeted for trophies. Are you saying we should have taken the rebated funds from the manufacturer and put them back into the trophy fund and not given it to the members who won the trophies? That was an option we considered.

The right thing is always the legal thing they're not mutually exclusive! I don't subscribe to situational ethics.

 

If you "don't subscribe to situational ethics", then were ALL purchases made from this "vendor", and others, assessed for value for possible "reimbursement" ?????

Or is it because a high profile shooter, and wife, were not happy that just these required a "reimbursement" ?????

As a low profile shooter can I request that my trophy be held to some kind of standard of assessed value ?????

"rebated funds" .... "back into the trophy fund" .... "not given it to the members who won the trophies" .... that may depend on if these "funds" are under the "charitable entity".

If I was involved in some of the "appearance of impropriety", I would be in contact with a very good Lawyer that knows tax law for a "charitable entity", and find out what personal liability I may be subject to.

 

Yes, and when you do the learned attorney will advise you of the other side of that sword called false and malicious statements as well as the process involved with whistle blower act. Ask me how I know?

 

Everyone wants to say "501(c)(3)", and it is "a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity", a "charitable entity" has laws to govern it.

https://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non...-Requirements-Section-501(c)(3)-Organizations

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction."

Everyone who enters an "event" pays a target and trophy 'FEE', not a "donation".

"for example I DONATE $1000 and designate it to the youth fund" .... what does this "example" have to do with money paid as a trophy FEE ??????

"cheap shot" ... maybe, but it does deserve a reply. I am full of "cheap shots", ask me why.

 

Why?

 

I sent you a PM.

My 'start' with the ATA was rough for a 12 year old kid. I was at a smaller ATA shoot and placed in 'D-class' because of the number of entrants. I break a 91, my best for a ATA shoot .... while standing where the scores were posted, a few plump drunks were laughing about their 'buddy' breaking a 100 in D-class and winning the "trophy". Fast forward 30 years, standing at the same place I see a young man say "look dad there is a 100 in D-class", he also broke his best score that day. The thing is I know the person that broke the 100. I lived 2 miles from the gun club where I know he purchased the targets, DID NOT SHOOT THEM. I cussed every ATA official I could find on the grounds. The only thing the ATA 'did' was tell people 'those' targets would not count for a reduction. That is ALL that happened.

It is very hard for me to encourage 'youth shooters' to involve themselves in the ATA, when nothing has been done to prevent the next young shooter from getting smoked by a drunk.

I have a book full of 'stories', but will start with that one.

 

There are no doubt stories abound about questionable procedures, having been on the losing end of a few I appreciate what User 1 is saying ... The ATA (EC and BOD ) are supposed to support and promote trapshooting which has yet to be seen or proven ... Trap shooters, and the little clubs all across America, Canada, and many foreign country's are the grass root supporters and promoters of trap shooting in every sense of the words, not the ATA or any of those elected to do so ... Integrity has been eliminated a long time ago and can be supported by the loss of members and interest over the years ... Members are seeing the true colors of those in charge and see that they have made the ATA a cash cow to support them, their agenda's, and their Buddies ... If there was ever legal action taken against the individuals who have been scamming the association and its members things might get turned around and put back on track, but that's only if and or when it happens ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The time is ripe//////////////////// Roger C.

 

Thanks User 1, I have your PM and returned it. I look forward to talking with you.
Jim

 

I went to a very large state shoot (some years ago) and won a picture. I knew where it came from...

The dollar store..I immediately gave the picture back to the vender and told him to hang it on a wall in

His home. He then quickly gave me a catalog and told me to pick out another item

I did, and I am still wearing the earrings I picked out!

AND there were other trophies purchased from a dollar store. I bought one and showed the gun club

Manager, but the vender still enjoyed the business for several more years?,

Greta c

 

Buying Trophies for an ATA shoot today has to be a nightmare. In the first place you can't fool math and when you have so many damn categories, groups, classes, sub groups, friends of the family (EC members) to feel like a champion by WINNING something it by definition (math) has to make the trophy have little monetary value. When like in jr gold you have 3 or four shooters eligible for category in the first place how much can a state shoot spend on it. Let alone for 2nd, 3rd, 4thh, 5th.

If you notice Karla said that she was responsible for 2000 trophies for the grand, BEFORE all the new categories. You just can't have quality like we did in the 70's and 80's when the grand gave all Stieff silver away. Back then you had maybe 250 - 350 trophies for the whole grand week, just a educated guess on my part I really don't care enough to look it up, someone else can, but you get my point. The grand back then was over twice as big as today's, so mathematically there should be less than half as many trophies instead of 4 or 5 times more. It's just plain screwed up, the whole damn thing has turned into a depressing joke for the old guys like me out here and I don't think it can even be saved let alone fixed. Just to Damn bad.

I've won over a thousand trophies trap and pigeon shooting, some great some not so great. The last 10 years I very seldom shot off, the ammo was worth more than the trophy in most cases. It even got that bad at the grand in the last days of Vandalia. I knew it was time for me to quit traveling and competing when I quit caring, so I did. I wish it wasn't so but it is and I really don't miss it, especially with the way the ATA has gone. Not for me.

I've read on here that Gibson is talking about Tucson. I liked to shoot at Tuscon but moving the Grand American farther away from the registered base is just a wonderful idea. If the EC goes that way I'd hope that the East would start there own association and keep their members money at home instead of pissing it away where the majority of their shooters will never be able to attend.

I think every shooter still shooting ATA should thank their delegates for the wonderful job they've done to get the ATA in the spot it is. Well done boys and girls. Brad Dysinger

 

I asked one of our New delegates how he/she felt about the present ATA Happenings, Reply I do not care, I can't change it.
I asked this question at the Ohio State Shoot in the Food Pavillion while sitting in my wheelchair.

So boys and girls there you have it
Dr.longshot

 

Dr. Longshot, apathy has, is, and was what has caused the situation that trap shooting is in. You've been around longer than me, think of all the trap clubs we've seen closed here in Ohio over the years, look at the smaller size of ATA and calcutta shoots here, it's even worse in other states. To think that what the ATA does and how it's run, doesn't affect the big picture is stupid. The grand moving hurt Ohio shooting, even with the CC coming around.

"I can't change it" they said, so many just stopped shooting. I've tried to change the apathy, but I've stopped shooting also. I can't recomend to anyone they start shooting ATA. There is no future in it. Go to your local non registered club and have fun. Little clubs, sportsmen's clubs, will survive but big 12 field plus privately owned clubs will not, other than the CC.

The big downside with the CC is it is so large and the number of shooters dwindling that shoot ATA as they have clubs like Middletown, Jaquas, Great Eastern can't. If trap shooters aren't shooting registered you don't need the large club because you don't have the big shoots. Other than the CC. Brad Dysinger