Looking for Robert Glass/Frank Rively info

Several years ago there was some posting regarding an internal audit, I believe, conducted by Robert Glass, and aided by Dr. Frank Rively. There were several pages of information regarding what actually happened that was sent to the ATA EC. Does anyone still have a copy of that information they can email me? You can contact me via PM if desired.... Thanks

 

Dan, If you get any results I would appreciate a copy. Roger C.

 

Dan,
I f you get what you asked for please post it, I will place odds that what you asked for went out in the trash, "POST HASTE" ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I have a lot of that in my files and I'll look for it. May be a few days. Brad

 

Brad.... I would appreciate that. As I recall, it also had something to do with the 501c3, but, I'm not certain....

 

OK now Dan, I can't emphasize this enough. Low profile, low profile they don't know where you are yet but you'll have the "Empire" upset and then we'll end up with Moe, Larry and Curly looking for you for immediate indoctrination. Low profile!

 

I was able to get the entire copies of this fiasco and now have them downloaded to my files..... Reading through it again just ignites me to the boiling point. This all goes back years and years, was brought to light in 2010 yet nothing changes..... If anyone wants a reason to tell the ATA enough is enough, PM me and I'll give it to you...

 

Dan,

You shot 100 ATA targets in 1995, 200 ATA targets in 2005, 500 ATA targets in 2008 and 800 ATA targets in 2010, your membership in the ATA has been expired for God knows how long and you want to go after the ATA with the rest of these guys.

Why would anything ATA related make your blood boil? You shoot PITA not ATA.

 

Leonidas,

Dan is a man of integrity, I have known him for many years, if you can not understand why honest men are outraged by under handed dealings and skirting the laws of our land, you have a moral problem that you have to deal with. Roger C.

 

Leonidas---who is going after the ATA? What is it you don't want anyone knowing?

 

Dan can't reply for himself?

 

Leonidas---Did not see you reply. Who are all the people going after the ATA? Who are the rest of the guys? What are they going after them about? What is wrong with asking about an audit? Who would that hurt?

 

marshrabbit, keep asking questions, you'll make a good reporter someday. Maybe even as good as Jimmy Olsen.

 

Could we get the audit posted? Now I want to see what Leonidas doesn't.

 

You have a PM

 

Dan, would you please send me a copy.
Best regards,
Jim

 

Perhaps the public would like to see what is being referred to ~~~ See attachments.

Sorry they are not in order.

 

Anything newer than 5 years old?

 

Leonidas, king of the spartans,

In bouncing back and forth between sites you have apparently clocked on to wrong site by mistake. That same old, worn out, "How many ATA registered targets have you shot". And, "If you don't shoot ATA targets you should go away" garbage is just that, garbage.

You would get a few "thanked this" replies from "those guys" on that old site for sure but I don't think too many on this one.

On this site, the number of ATA REGISTERED targets someone has shot means NOTHING.

I DIDN'T LEAVE THE ATA.

THE ATA LEFT ME.

FlyersAREbest

 

This is exactly the information I requested, and now have, for those that are interested. Perhaps this will be an eye opener to some of you that still think of the ATA as an association that has your best interest at heart. Some of you will see the light, and some of you will continue to defend the ATA as having done nothing wrong, and follow them blindly down their eventual path of self destruction. With all the information out there regarding the various things the ATA has done to the membership, those that continue to follow are deserving of what the ATA shoves down their throat. The rest of us will say enough is enough and find something better....

 

EXACTLY!! I shot ATA targets for years when the ATA was thriving. Things slowly started to go down hill, and for me, the last straw was the Robert Glatz/Frank Rively debacle above. I opted out.
As an informed member, I soon learned that:

I DON'T NEED THE ATA to be able to continue to shoot registered targets and shoot with friends.

THE ATA NEEDS ME and my membership money to continue to fleece their members while lining their pockets.....

 

You might want to pay real close attention to item #25 in Glatz's recommendations to the ATA....

25. "Establish a contingency plan in the event the World Shooting & Recreation Complex is no longer
available to the ATA."

This was suggested to the ATA 5 years ago, but, did the ATA listen and heed the advice given? No, and that's why, in a nutshell, the ATA now finds themselves ass deep in a swamp full of alligators while the swamp is draining...

 

I'm on the right site, the other site is boring after all the ding a lings left!

I simply ask why he was so concerned about something he is no longer associated with.

 

Corruption is corruption, you do not have to be a dues paying member for it to matter and or be deemed illegal ... The ATA is obviously as corrupt as the Politico's in the State of Illinois or so it seems ... These issues have to be turned over to the authorities and let them handle the legal aspects of them ... The members have been far to complacent about being ripped off by the people who are supposed to be the least expected to do so, this obviously goes back many years and all involved should be investigated ... The Cash Cow may soon be dead and the trash taken out so the organization can move on .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Leonidas..... I'm concerned because I want to be associated with the ATA, just not at this time knowing how it's being run today. If the association was turned around and back on the right track, I would gladly re-join the ranks. I miss the great way the ATA was run when I first joined. That being said, how are things ever going to change unless the members are aware of what is happening? How are they going to become aware without some of us shedding light on the current state of affairs? I, for one, refuse to bury my head in the sand and pretend like everything is fine and dandy with the ATA knowing very well what has happened in the past.... You, on the other hand, can continue to support, and defend, the ATA. I understand your position completely:

Your mind is made up so I won't try to confuse you with facts......

 

Dan (Trap 2)

Glad to be of assistance !

For some reason I had saved many old files on different subjects that appeared at the time, controversial.

Today, several years later, I am very glad I did.

Facts are facts, not hearsay.

 

WPT ~~~ I believe you know by now, NOT much get's tossed out in the trash by me when it came to these controversial items of the past.

Don't place too many odds against my files..LOL

You are a good guy, and I wouldn't take your $$$ anyway

 

Trap2, Thank you for your civilized answer. A rare commodity on this site.

I was just curious about your concerns regarding the ATA.

 

Wow, reading those papers brings back some bad memories, the beginning of my end. Even after years of therapy I think my eye is starting to twitch again.

 

Jim my friend, several of us wondered if this was you...

Thanks, and perhaps you may be willing from time to time, to enlighten us on some facts we have missed.

Glad to have you aboard !

Dave

 

Hi Dave, yeah it's me! I shook the stuff off of my boots walked away from the EC and ATA years ago and never looked back. I quit shooting trap and got into motorcycles and hot rods. Always glad to help anyway I can.
Jim

 

I backed off of trapshooting for a few years more than one time, got tired of the BS ... Built a nice 67 Plymouth Hemi car with the shooting funds being as I wasn't shooting due to all of the BS and corruption within the organization ... The EC and some of the BOD do not know how to deal with men of Integrity and Honor like Dr Frank Rively, Mr. Paul Shaw, and I have heard Mr. Jim Thompson so they hire and fire them as swiftly as possible ... I have a feeling enough members are getting a belly full and the time is coming to force and demand some answers ... I will be making some phone calls first thing Monday morning to see what if anything can be done to correct this type of crap and force them to play by the rules ... I seriously doubt most of the members want to subsidize the EC and or some of the BOD members shooting, travel, and expenses ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Yeah, I can see from your post how you were "just curious"

How could anyone reading your posting about how many ATA targets Dan shot and when he last paid dues to the ATA think you were implying anything?

FlyersAREbest

 

Thanks Bill, I hated Hemis and hated to see them coming...because I couldn't touch them! God those 426's were/are awsome. Hey, I don't want to hijack this thread so well talk more later. Still have my magic rocks

 

I once stood in awe of my first '68 hemi Roadrunner. So, what did I buy-a '69 with a 383. At least I'm still alive to talk about it!!

 

Flyers, You can read anything you want it to any post I make. It just shows what kind of up bringing you had!

 

Leonidas...what do you think about the warning of criminal violations from the auditor?

However, I remain very concerned that what you are doing is a violation of law and IRS Regulations and could reflect very badly upon the ATA and potentially lead to the loss of the organization’s 501(c)(3) status.

 

Read anything I want into you post?

I didn't have to "read" anything into it. You tried that same old CRAP you and the other Kool-Aid drinkers use on that old worn out site. Nothing new there.

That's always one of the first things you guys try. It doesn't work here. As you found out.

You got called on it and back peddled by claiming you were just curious.

My upbringing?

My parents taught me that if I said something and believed it, I should stand behind it. When questioned about it never try to weasel out of it by changing my story.

Looks like you were never taught that.

FlyersAREbest

 

Leonidas...you asked on another thread sarcastically if we thought an attorney had looked at this stuff. Here is what the counsel warned:

2.2 The board should consider eliminating the EC expense reimbursements, the president’s

Discretionary Travel Budget and the president’s gun allowance. All of these payments are
inconsistent with the ATA’s status as a public charity. At a minimum, the payments should be

restructured as taxable income (to reduce tax exposure to the ATA) to eliminate the elements of “personal expense” reimbursement. This recommendation was also made in writing by the ATA's outside counsel who specializes in 501(c)(3) law.

 

So they were advised this is illegal!
Then they were warned again!

These clowns would never eliminate their "Personal Benefit(s)" from the 501 c 3.

 

This from the previous post by User-1

Sec. 17. Any trustee who with malice and
without lawful authority, in violation of the trust purposes or by intentional breach of fiduciary duty, intentionally disburses or causes charitable trust funds to be used for his personal benefit or personal use in an amount in excess of $1,000 within a 5 year period is guilty of a Class 2 felony and is subject to punitive damages up to or equal to the amount misused and is subject to a civil penalty of up to $50,000 for each intentional knowing violation.

I am not an attorney but I know when to listen to one. jmho

 

Dan, I'm glad you got Bob's stuff. He talked to us at the CC the year I was president of the osta. I found all the papers but I'm glad you posted. The EC changed everything when they became a 501 charity, but they kept doing business the same old boys way that you and I, (and many other ATA members) came to hate.

I haven't shot for 3 years, ATA, but have fun shooting the meat shoots like when I started trap shooting. I never even knew what ATA was when I was a kid even though my dad went to Vandalia every year during THE GRAND to shop. I spent my time then picking up free samples like wads and empties.

I feel sorry for those who mistakenly think you and I don't love trap shooting when the truth is we just hate crooks, and make no mistake we are in the presence of crooks. I hope that the EC gets what they deserve. I can't believe Illinois will let them skate with the situation the Illinois budget and finances are in. Illinois Politicians can't be happy pouring money into the shooting complex, or they'd have kept it open.

Math don't lie even when politicians and ATA leaders do. I'm laughing about some lawyer telling the EC five years ago they better stop using the ATA charity coffers for personal gain. That would have put too much financial strain on them and made being an EC less attractive, What no free shit. I'm just glad all of a sudden others are paying attention to the same stuff I've been for the last 20 plus years. I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

Jim glad to see you back in the fray, the winds are starting to blow in a better direction. Brad

 

For the Kool Aid drinkers that think the ATA is doing GREAT in Sparta ..... "If the trend continues, we will liquidate the ATA." from Robert R. Glatz, CPA July 19, 2010

from N1H1 post on threads/the-2015-ata-bod-meeting-results .... ""The ATA made 1.1 million in fiscal 2014. Most came from investments;"

"Stop using interest/dividends on the ATA’s endowment to supplement current operations." from RRG’s Specific Recommendations/Conclusions

Fantastic direction .... "If the trend continues, we will liquidate the ATA."

 

Old news. I think if you go back and check you will find that Mr. Glatz's audit was rechecked by an outside firm and I believe the IRS regarding the 501c3. I believe they only found minor issues.

But don't let that stop you. This ought to give you fuel to keep your hatred going for at least a couple more weeks.

Bothered Mr. Glatz so much he still shoots ATA targets.

Lefty

 

Lefty++++Why should Glatz stop shooting? Also you said:

So you don't know? Not sure?

 

Leftout,
The IRS does not enforce "The Illinois Charitable Trust Act." You may have info I do not have. The other issue I have with your statement is you seem to call all here "haters." Yet you attack Mr. Glatz for shooting ATA targets.

I would like to thank Mr. Glatz for his efforts to help the ATA in his position. What would our org be like if every EC member was like him?

 

You are something else. I made a comment about Mr. Glatz still shooting and you turn it into criticism, I think it's great he is still shooting ATA, that's more than some of you could say.

By the way where were you all when this all came out years ago. The report was dissected, bisected, scrutinized and analyzed by many qualified people. It was discussed endlessly.

Lefty

 

Since the ATA board as a whole, the delegates, had access to Bob Glatz's report and were in effect warned at another point by a Lawyer about what to stop doing, why wouldn't they be held as legally responsible as the EC. The EC are just delegates elected by other delegates to leadership. I would think that all board members would be responsible. Financially, legally, but surely morally.

I think I could argue the point that they allowed the EC and handicap committee to acquire personal gain such as free trips, lodging, & travel expenses to satellite grands ect, because they think they are in line to move up to one of those positions when their time comes. Don't rock the boat if you want to get on the gravy train. I know many times Kiner heard me say (and never openly disagreed with me) how disappointed I was with someone who I thought would make a good EC member and change things get on the EC and fell right in with the crowd. I told him "it's like when they put that white hat on their head it sucks out the brains and common sense."

Over the years I've know several EC members very well, shot with them a lot, and these guys seemed to change when they got to the EC and then even more remarkably try and get back on my good side after they left the EC. A lot quit shooting, definitely didn't travel around as much. It was like I was a priest who'd give them absolutions for the sins they committed or looked the other way as someone else was committing them on the ATA membership. The old what could I do excuse or I didn't know.

You wonder why I fight the corruption in the ATA leadership so much. You spend as many years in the confessional as I have and you'd have heard a lot of "sins" that have been committed. The ATA leadership has really let down trap shooting and now maybe they will get to just reward, not absolution. Brad

 

If a tree falls at Sparta ( that's if there was a tree) would any trap shooter hear it? Brad

 

I think once they get involved in the politics some are already corrupt and others start out with good intentions but get caught up in the freebies of the good life. I'm sure you know someone you thought would be a good fit for the shooters only to find out they like the secret conversations and the little extras thrown their way. Pretty soon that expense account relives their mind of any thought of change instead the thought process becomes the protection if the kingdom and their seat at the round table. Their whole effort directed at the new gun in the not too distant future.

 

With the present upheavel going on I had completely forgotten the report by Robert Glatz, it appears nothing has changed, it should, probably nothing will. The EC were able to disregard the report when it was presented and filed it away not to be heard from again, too bad for the ATA membership. If nothing changes in the ATA after the Sparta castrophe we as members should be electing delegates who will stand up for what is right and correct the mismanagement of the ATA.

 

That vote should have be done regardless of any perceived wrong doings. Term limits also help solve problems associated with corruption.

 

I think that one problem is that once you become a VP you automatically stay on to become president of the ATA. Historybuff should be able to tell us when that changed because I can remember when that wasn't so. I think it was in the 90's. A zone VP could lose his spot it he was voted out as state delegate but it was changed for someone. HistoryBuff or someone else on here should remember that, might be the late 80's but I think the 90's and I can't remember which zone VP the change in the rule was meant to protect but it was done to protect a zone VP that was in trouble in his state and either did or was about to get voted out as a delegate.

So the VP system the ATA works on has been the way it is for years. This didn't just happen, but Leonidas is on the right tract. Brad

 

What has happened, and when it may have happened, only matters if 'we' act in a manner to stop it.

Hoping cyber-chat will make those filling their pockets change the culture is a pipe-dream.

Pull the plug and let them face the State and Federal IRS and FBI, or be the cyber paper tiger for others to scoff at for years to come.

 

I agree with User1, get it out in the open, let the IRS figure out if there was or is any wrong doing, then everyone can move on.

 

The post above mine was made on Oct. 28, 2015. Can anyone list the changes made to the ATA operating system? Same old shit different year. Roger C.

 

Sure , "Gipson" is now over half a million dollars better off ..... and now the "gun gift" complies with the "by-laws" .....

 

OK you guys get in here we have a problem
What's up?
Apparently a few of the has-beens and malcontents that at one time shot a LARGE number of registered targets are pissed that one of us gets a gun when we are done running the organization.

You mean to tell me that they are upset because we use a lousy 15 to 16 thousand dollars to buy a gun as a present for the outgoing boss?
Yep, can you believe it?

Heck, don't they know that since we didn't pay anyone any kind of a salary the gun was kind of like a paycheck at the end. You know, a nice little thank you, if you will.

I'm sure most of them knew why we did it. They just didn't think is was either the right thing to do or even legal to do it.

We never worried about what they thought before so why now. Screw em', they only have to know what we want them to know. We have been doing business like that for years and it has worked out pretty well for us.

Yeah well that was the good old days, and I'm afraid that because these people started all the hoopla about the gun we are not allowed to just, give it away, any longer.

Hell, that's an easy fix.

Huh? How easy?

WE just change the by-laws. Easy peasy. What else you got?

I'll be a SOB, I never thought of that. Oh, one more thing. What kind of wood do you want on your gun when it's your turn.

 

Just curious....if the ATA is so bad how come there are so many members? (30,000 active per year according to their site.) It would seem to me that all the malcontents would simply move over to P.I.T.A and live happily thereafter. It is one thing to bitch about an organization and quite another to do something about it.

 

"JGM" ..... if you are "just curious", you can spend days, or even weeks in cyber-land finding the answers you seek .....

This ..... "It is one thing to bitch about an organization and quite another to do something about it." ..... will start you down a long dark path you may not wish to travel. But, if that is your wish, understand you are dumping gallons of gas on a large fire .....

 

I will google "It is one thing to bitch about an organization and quite another to do something about it." at your suggestion and see what I can come up with.

 

If you want to quickly lose a good paying job by searching dark, hidden corners the ATA hierarchy decided should not be visited just get hired for the ED position when it reopens!

 

While you do that ..... may I ask if you know anyone in the picture here ????? ..... http://sites.psu.edu/clubsports/clubs/trap-skeet/

 

Here is a fun "Google search" that may not be popular in the Penn State "curriculum" ..... https://www.google.com/search?q=wisdom vs knowledge&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

Laughing!!!! Please make this guy poster of the year. TRINKET OR SOMETHING!?

An org that once had around a 100,000 and used to shoot for cars and now cant get 1800 entries in the GAH. We had more in the GAH shortly after WWII.

ADMIN PLEASE GIVE JGM A TRINKET!!!!!
-------------------------------

NO STOP WITH THE TRINKET.....give JGM the mother load of trinkets.
This post :

Gosh my gut hurts from laughing. ATA leaders told the media at the grand there were 15,000 in the campsite during prelim week and another 15,000 in the local motels.

Like JGM says....use the ATA figures.

THIS GUY IS POSTER OF THE YEAR!
----------------------------------

And did JGM mention the ATA mysteriously doubled the number of shooters at the grand last year and published that data. Yeah........lets trust the ATA.

TRINKETS FOR JGM.....LOTS AND LOTS OF TRINKETS!

 

Apparently I missed the humor. But, send the trinkets.

On edit: Are User 1 and Smithy typical trap shooters?

 

No, I don't know any of them. I do believe, though, the two adults (coaches) are from the Shenecoy club where the team shoots.

 

Suck it up, Buttercup ..... you had/have a choice to let that garbage you put in post number "59" fade into the abyss ..... but just had to make post number "61" ..... choose the path, get what it has to offer .....

 

As for causes to the decline I think it was aided by national trends. Golf is down, there are more golf courses closing then new ones opening. Bowling is almost dead. Tennis is losing numbers. Most all team sports in the US are declining with the young people today.

I think it does bode well that it seems we are getting more young kids shooting trap as well as all the shooting sports bucking that trend.

If sporting clays and skeet or any other shooting sport gains numbers is should be good for trap as well as a rising tide lifts all boats.

 

Foster Brooks,
Not sure where you are from but golf is at an all time high out (early AM) here in Arizona, bowling has a waiting list to get on teams that fill a 40 lane house 5 nights a week, The Rec center bowling lanes have full teams in the fall with waiting list, summer is spotty because the snow birds go home , I do not follow tennis but where I live you cannot get on if you do not reserve a court days in advance ... The Trap and Skeet club is loaded in the early AM due to the heat of the day, then again after the sun goes down ... Sporting Clays and Bunker is always backed up with lines of people ... Traps get used daily, registered is down because a lot of the shooters got tired of supporting the ATA since they relocated to Ill ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Some historical figures on registered trapshooting for those who may be interested.

 

HB,
You never cease to amaze me ... You are the "GO TO MAN" , thank you for posting the real story ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

wpt, I think the amount of retirees in AZ help with your observations regarding golf, bowling, tennis, etc.

On a national level those very sports are experiencing decline.

 

HB,
Prior to 1995 the ATA reported total membership and participating membership. Referring to the 1994 target year report, is the ATA representing that there were 47K+ members that never shot a registered target that year? Maybe it's me but I would think the sole purpose of an ATA membership would be to participate in registered shooting. What am I missing?

 

Bowling is on life support while around 25% of the nations alleys have closed. Golf struggles too. I have no knowledge of tennis.

 

HB How can the target total per year be an odd number? Also in the early years the ATA did not delete deceased life members so it made the membership roster seem higher than it was.
Ed Yanchok

 

According to the ATA's own numbers there were 15,000 in the WSRC campsite and another 15,000 in motels prelim week.

And after being caught in that lie BY THIS FORUM the ATA got caught doubling the number of participants and printing that fake number in their own publication. And this forum caught that lie too.

Tell me more ATA numbers. JOKE!

 

Would this be what you are looking for? http://www.dtatrap.org/Glatz2.pdf

 

HB I've been reading on another thread ( the delegate duty one) and I see that you and Neil are still close so could you ask him to put all that info you just posted in a chart or graph. Maybe how the two hole target he pushed has caused the decline in members, in targets thrown, and in clubs shooting ATA. I can think of lots of chart and graph worthy items from his years in the ATA hierarchy to explain the decline of ATA members and registered shooting, can't you. Brad

 

If that is intended for the OP, he can not respond ..... http://www.americantrapshooter.com/index.php?threads/dan-thome-trap2.3316/

This thread has a "start date" of "Oct 23, 2015" ..... much has happened since then, including the loss of good friends.

 

User 1 No it was for the Historybuff, I call him Kenny. It's good that you remind the new people on here why some of the old posters aren't around anymore. I imagine once Sparta completes failing we will have many more newbies. Brad

 

Ed Y.,

I know you have been around a long time, and have a lot of ATA miles under your belt but I will attempt to clarify HB's uneven target count for the years.

A while back I wondered the same thing, how is there an uneven # of REGISTERED targets reported ?

I am only guessing here, but it just may be the way shoots were reported.

I have been at shoots where for reasons of illness, gun malfunctions, etc., etc., there were perhaps only 17 out of 25 rounds shot in a Sub Event when the shooter had to drop out. Shoot results showed "Joe Blow" SHOT AT perhaps 67 targets, thus giving the reported target count for the shoot that odd number of *,*67 targets shot.

Remembering, these are REGISTERED TARGETS which would not total the event targets if they were not REGISTERED.

My understanding is that ONLY Targets SHOT AT are REGISTERED, NOT what you signed up and paid for...Drop out in the middle of an event, remaining targets NOT SHOT at, are NOT counted as REGISTERED. Cannot Register DEAD or LOSS, what isn't shot at.

Only a guess on my part,but I have seen the reports submitted in that manner in the past.

Can anyone chime in with more clarification ???

 

My post was intended for "Michael J" ..... he used a quote from the first post in the thread by "Trap 2" .....

 

Brad's Friend, it can't work out that way since registered shoots record scores for all sub events started. If you only shot at 67 of 75 (in a normal 25 target sub event shoot), you would be scored on 75 target, not just the 67 you shot at.

 

I remember in the past they only scored the targets you shot at, not the whole sub event so Bat you are wrong and Brad's friend (I hope) is onto the answer. You should research your answer with a rule book from the years the odd targets happened. If you check the lifetime totals of oldsters they have some that are odd (the target totals).

As bad as Neil and his buddies screwed up the ATA with the 2 hole radar gun no money ideas they weren't the only EC that messed with the rules of trap shooting. They just did a better job of f++king it up and now we are where we are. Brad

 

Brad, the odd numbers posted run right up through 2015, and I'm pretty sure all the years shown by HB were years where subevents where scored as I stated. There is some other explanation.