CARDINAL CENTER UPDATE

Had a chance to have a discussion today with Luke. He told me they were going to throw orange dome targets at all events next year. Said it will help with the orange paint problem on the arms and should improve the doubles targets. Sounds like a great positive move for the Cardinal.

 

The Cardinal Center is doing what they need to do, if you have a venue and shooter base like the Cardinal keep striving to make the best even better. I always enjoy shooting there, just wish it was closer than 5 hours away. Then again whats 5 hours to shoot at a place as great as it is. They may even fix the potholes!!! Lol.

 

Wish they would’ve gone to the lime Green targets the BOD voted on last year. They did show up the best, but it’s an improvement none the less. Orange domed targets should make many people happy

 

Only a whiny point chaser would care what the targets look like. Everyone shoots the same place. The harder the better.

And I wish you hadn't lied about the number of clubs you have shot at. Remembering your quote...."hundreds of clubs".

You have no cred.

I think you would want some feathers pulled off your birds at at a Flyer event.

 

It’s not like I do not have facts to back up why they should be Lime Green. They were voted on by the BOD from Ohio. If you don’t believe me you can find the discussion in the October board meeting in 2020. I’m sure other shooters who don’t chase points would like to see the targets, the curtain is faded and will only get worse as time continues. On low light days the targets are going to be hard to see, this could decrease the attendance of shooters at the Cardinal even more so than issues that have been discussed previously.

As I’ve stated before on this website. The words “hundreds of clubs” was used as an exaggeration and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Those who did and still linger on it have their heads in the gutter. But you only see and read what you want. So continue dissing shooters and living in the old days. If trap was so easy why don’t we see you dominating competitions anywhere? If you are or have let us all know and I’ll take it back.
The Cardinal has Great potential but choices made by management have run off shooters and it’s sad to see it happen. It’s a nice facility don’t get me wrong. But the color should’ve been used as what was recommended by the BOD.
-Subjr

 

Jr

Hmmmm. First it was the potholes no one else can find, and now the lack of green targets that has caused you to get an ass whoopin from Joe. You weren’t even in the top 3.

I am guessing treatment like that is cause to run you out. No loss. You couldn’t finish at Ohio. Good to hear from one of the Sparta gang leaders.

 

Petulant binky boy now has his excuse for next year.

 

A board of directors do not always represent the shooters. If you disagree take a look at the ATA. We could see the orange dome targets before one was ever painted all orange or green. Quit blaming pot holes and target color for your poor shooting ability Subjr. You are starting to sound like a whiner. Roger C.

 

I think you and subjr should have a grudge match and see who's shooting abilities are better.

 

im really confused on what you’re talking about… are you still on the fact I didn’t perform the very best at a shoot with multiple shooters of massive talent? That happens.. it’s called life. I never claimed to be the best, but I’ve had multiple major trophies come from the Cardinal center. Joe is a good friend and I will continue to be on his squad as long as he wants. We don’t bicker or fight because one of us is doing better than the other. Trapshooting isn’t everything, but having good friends is. If there aren’t potholes, they must’ve fixed them.. good for the Cardinal center for fixing up their road. I’m only looking out for the place to keep the shooters they have and try and get back the ones they lost. I will continue to compete at the facility because as I’ve stated before it’s a nice place to shoot.
Keep saying people you disagree with suck.. that’ll make you plenty of friends. Let me know how you finished at the CC or any of the past few shoots hosted by the Cardinal Center. I’m really curious.
-subjr

 

EVERYTHING is subjective, if you do not like it ( Cardinal Center)stay away and go someplace you like that does not have pot holes ... This is getting to be a Big Brother pissing contest, opinions are like ( you know ) everyone has one, the only one that really matter to that person is theirs any way ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

PS. Pot holes do not make the targets any better or any worse ...

 

Rn3, I'm 85 yrs young, 10 yrs ago I would shoot a match with any one any place. I shot with and against the best of them, we never complained about the pot holes or the color of the targets. We were there to shoot not whine. Roger C.

 

Calling you a petulant child is an insult to the world of petulants.

No one is leaving the CC because u imagined potholes.

Tens of thousands no longer shoot registered because the ATA flag shoot is in Illinois.

If you think the Ohio talent kicked your ass this year, I can’t imagine what excuse you needed pre-1994.

 

I know many shooters who have left because of low maintenance, bad targets and they don’t like the background. That’s a fact. And guess what it’s 2021, why keep bringing up the old days? Because it was harder? I bet it was. But besides a few clubs around the country who keep it old school. It’s not relevant in modern shooting. There’s a new way to do things.
I dont doubt people quick shooting ATA as a whole just because the Grand was moved. I think that’s silly, But if they did that’s there choice. Just like the choices of those who don’t return to the CC

 

When have I said I never liked the place. I have always stated that it’s a nice place to shoot. They just need to move in the right direction on some things where they’ve been lacking. No club is perfect, but Cardinal can gain back a lot of shooters if they just listen to them. That’s all. Everything is subjective if you don’t like my opinion don’t read what I type?
-Subjr

 

The only thing lacking is maturity on your part. Whomever labeled you petulant smoked that target. The CC isn’t missing shooters. LOL.

You say you know many shooters that have left. Lol. That list should be interesting. Lol. Did they all get their lunch taken by the Ohio talent you talked about? Suggestion…..stay in your own league. You don’t have it.

 

If every club changed their way of operation to please every shooter who has the idea their way is the right way nothing would ever get done and there would be constant changes, God only knows how many others you would piss off ... If I went to a club and didn't like the way they ran their shoot, didn't like the color of the targets, figured there was nothing being done because of pot holes, weeds in the grass, cracks in side walks, less than perfect parking or camping, not the best food but edible I would probably just go there to shoot and not pay particular attention to anything else ... If everyone who had all of the ideas picked up a shovel and gave a hand digging the hole the hole would get done a lot faster ... Cardinal Center does not in any way seem to be lacking shooters based on the attendance records at the shoot they have on schedule, if they are losing shooters they probably do not even realize it or have time to take that into consideration for an operation of that size ... You will never be able to make everyone happy, you just try your best and deal with the ones you do make happy and not worry about the others ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Jr

Free targets were offered to the SCTP at Sparta. The SCTP decided they would rather pay for targets at the Cardinal Center than have free targets in Sparta. That put the trapshoot with the most contestants and the largest skeet shoot at the Cardinal Center for at least 10 years. Plus all the traffic for the pistol and rifle ranges.

On top of that there is the normal sporting Clay events, the Cardinal Classic, Buckeye, Regional SCTP, Ohio State Shoot, and smaller events too numerous to mention.

I take more pics than anyone at the CC. I didn’t notice a bad roadway. But, considering the massive use of the place it wouldn’t surprise me if a hole showed up. I would be surprise if a rarely used road like that in Sparta was worn.

I did talk to hundreds of shooters at the CC. Not one person complained. Just you.

Best of luck.

 

Free targets were offered to the SCTP at Sparta. The SCTP decided they would rather pay for targets at the Cardinal Center than have free targets in Sparta. That put the trapshoot with the most contestants and the largest skeet shoot at the Cardinal Center for at least 10 years. Plus all the traffic for the pistol and rifle ranges.

On top of that there is the normal sporting Clay events, the Cardinal Classic, Buckeye, Regional SCTP, Ohio State Shoot, and smaller events too numerous to mention.

I take more pics than anyone at the CC. I didn’t notice a bad roadway. But, considering the massive use of the place it wouldn’t surprise me if a hole showed up. I would be surprise if a rarely used road like that in Sparta was worn.

I did talk to hundreds of shooters at the CC. Not one person complained. Just you.

Maybe you will perform better next year.[/QUOTE]

it’s quite funny how everyone backing the Cardinal center thinks it’s next to gods palace. Yes it’s a nice place to shoot. The facilities are nice. The roads suck and if you can’t find potholes, ask management why they’re getting ready to repair the sporting clays road. Hint hint too many complaints on it. I’ve seen people get flat tires on it. I could give a rats ass on my shooting. I’m in this sport to have fun, what’s not fun is having friends who won’t return to a nice club because it’s not maintained and the targets are good. The Cardinal Classic was down 200 shooters this year from previous. I only defend Sparta because it’s where the Grand is. It’s the best facility in the worst place but it is what it is. There’s no changing that.
keep taking pictures, maybe you can open your eyes and look around
-Subjr

 

Jr.

Sure you have friends that won’t go there. Frankly I question both statements. The trapshooting world knows better.

Saying the Cardinal Classic was down 200 shooters during COVID while ignoring they were up the 4,000 just from the SCTP that left Sparta? (one shoot) And they will be there a lonnng time.

I forgot to mention the two College National SCTP Championships this year. The numbers of people using those roads keeps adding up.

And did I mention those that drop by to see the OSTA HOF? More traffic.

And while the CC was setting record numbers, Sparta’s grand had fewer shooters than before the Korean War.

You have put your bitterness on display. You may want to reconsider.

I will keep taking pictures. Thousands a year.

Keep practicing.

https://www.americantrapshooter.com...mpionships-2021-cardinal-center-2-of-2.15479/

https://www.americantrapshooter.com...ade-cardinal-center-2021-behind-stands.15463/

 

Everyone needs to practice. Joey (one of the best shooters in the country) has been great for a long time. But he stepped up his game when he added a trap at his house. He can dominate anywhere he goes
I don’t practice very much. But it hasn’t stopped me from winning events at the Cardinal before.
The SCTP went to Ohio due to having better hotel situations, food, and being closer to a major city. Sparta hosted the SCTP events with no problems. More and more kids are shooting because it’s a sport built on teams and friendships. The more kids shoot the more and more kids join. None of those kids (very few) join the Cardinal for any other events besides the nationals.
The college championships don’t have much traffic, sure it’s a team vs team shoot but there’s not many shooters in attendance
How can you question people not wanting to go to the Cardinal because they don’t like it and have had enough. Why don’t you ask management about the roads. Especially at the sporting clays, sure they’re used a lot. But if they didn’t fill them with dirt and paved them they wouldn’t have a problem. I won’t reconsider sharing my opinions on a website full of people thinking the Cardinal is the best of the best. It’s a nice facility (don’t know how many times I have to say this), but all they have to do is have someone to take care of it. Maybe that’s why there’s a roller, tractor and drag parked near the roads. Maybe they’ve seen all the things that need to be brought to their attention and are ready to fix it. That’d be sweet

 

It couldn’t have had anything to do with Illinois shuttering the joint without notice leaving the College National Championship without a venue. And then came the Cardinal Center rescuing the SCTP. And it couldn’t be because Illinois is a gun hate state.

There isn’t? There are more shooters at the CC using that drive than there are at the Sparta that week. Around a thousand more. The reason? The SCTP chose to pay to shoot the CC targets. It was a better deal than free targets at Sparta. I take thousands of pictures there. I talk to hundreds of college kids, and many parents. Not one complaint about your fantasy potholes.

I make it a point to talk to the drivers of the busses. No complaints. No fantasy flat tires. Lol

You can’t use the “I am just pro CC or Pro Ohio crap”. You might want to read my postings. I talk to management there regularly and I am not shy about hot issues with the OSTA.

Your statements hold as much weight as your mega fib about shooting at “hundreds of clubs”. Sure you have. Winky wink.

 

Wow. Another mega fib from the person that that said he had hot at “hundreds of clubs”

How about the SCTP Ohio State Shoot? Didn’t happen? No one there that week?
https://www.americantrapshooter.com...trapshooting-championship-2021-4-of-14.15184/

There were so many kids there I had 14 threads of pictures. There were more people there than the OSTA State Shoot.

 

Jr…..

Your fantasy fibs aren’t helping you.

Try using a graph.

 

I suppose the SCTP Regionals never happened either?
https://www.americantrapshooter.com...-sctp-regionals-2021-cardinal-center-1.14680/
10 threads of pictures. There were more people using the roads that week than there were at Sparta. And not a single complaint. There were more people there than the OSTA shoot. (again)

Time for a graph?

 

Trying to make a point with a Subjr, you might just as well talk to the toaster, bet he goes to all of the democrapic conventions to cheer for his hero's or find fault in something ... Cardinal Center is Privately owned and will be there long after the State of Illinois has bull dozed the wsrc ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Orange dome as in the full black rim and not the New York 3/4 style? Just curious.

 

I don’t think you can justify how many shooters or people were there just by how many pictures you take... for exact numbers... the SCTP Ohio state shoot there were 602 shooters. That includes rookies, who most of them only shoot 100 targets. For the Ohio SCTP regionals shoot had 472 shooters. The college shoot, there were 203 shooters who shot trap. Now correct me if I’m wrong in the singles championship alone at the Ohio State Shoot had 893 shooters in that event alone. If you want to count parents in all of this to add the the “total amount of people” go ahead but those parents aren’t participating in shooting targets thrown by the cardinal center.

I for one am well aware of the complaints that occur at the cardinal center, you won’t hear management talking about them to just any person who talks to them regularly because they want to keep things in house and handle them at their own discretion. I don’t think any management at any club wants to just broadcast all their issues.

Being from Ohio and having major shoots in my back yard is great. People always show up to shoot at the cardinal center. There are some that won’t come back but many of them do. It’s all a personal choice you can’t fault someone if they choose to come back or not that’s their right. If they feel that have been wronged then let them feel that way and not come back.

But to say how many threads of pictures you have means there were more shooters there? I think it just means you took more pictures that week or that day than you did at the “OSTA” shoot. Whatever you have against the OSTA, once again your choice, can’t fault you, go ahead and have it. The group of shooters you talk to that don’t have any complaints will skew any “graph” that’s made. Just like exit polls in an election, if you ask 10 people that vote one way compared to 1 person that voted the opposite way, then of course the graph with show and overwhelming favorability going that one way (the hundreds of shooters that you talk to that don’t complain).

I’ve talked to many shooters who do complain. The complaints I hear about the cardinal center are about the targets, some about the maintenance, but mostly about the targets. Now the original subject of this post is about the change in TARGETS at the cardinal center which will possibly fix those complaints or cause more. We are trapshooters, well most of us, there will always be that group of shooters that complain and can’t be satisfied. Let’s see who next year is with the target change.

 

you can keep reading around the lines even though I said it was an exaggeration. The college championships in October are not a huge shoot. I’ve been there to compete. There wasn’t a lot of people. Competitors and family members. Illinois will continue to own the WRSC and it’s a shame, but that’s where the Grand is hosted. If it was privately owned, then it would be different.
There will always be more kid shooters. That’s just the way it is. SCTP shoots insure friendly teamwork and competition between thousands of kids. But most of them will not stick with it after Highschool. It’s obvious there are more kids shooting, that’s a gimme. The college shoots are less busy than any other SCTP shoot at the CC (most likely)
and like I said before. Sparta is the best complex in the worst state. If it were in any neighboring state it would be so much busier than it is now. I’ve lived in IL my whole life, I know how shitty it is. I wouldn’t say we are anti gun through and through. There a few extra things that we have but it doesn’t make anything impossible. Southern IL is controlled by the city of Chicago.
And just because you took ** # of pictures doesn’t mean anything on attendance? It just means you took more pictures. Probably saw a young kid shooting with Grandpa or a cute puller or whatever you want. Your pictures are of everything. But you cannot say because you took more pictures means there are more shooters.

 

Michigan Berry, the orange dome has more black then the NY style target. I started this post on a very positive note about what I considered a good move by the the management of the CC. I did not intent for it to become a pissing contest with Subjr1. Subjr, if you got a axe you want to grind, go start your own post and blow all the smoke you want, in the mean time will you consider taking your BS off of this post. Thank you.

 

The blocking feature works great, got tired of hearing the same thing over and over from someone who claims to know it all but probably never ran or helped run a shoot or program ... If what he says is true (doubtful) he should name, names, times, dates or at least discontinue his drivel and go on his merry way ... Cardinal Center is there to stay for a long time, like it or not ..... WSRC, you never know, you know ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thanks for confirming. A couple of folks were talking this over at my local club yesterday. There was confusion because “orange dome” or “black rim” get used interchangeably too often and while I tried to explain this, I figured it’d help to just go to the source.

 

Instead of whining about the targets, those complaining shooters should tell the ATA to step up and do their job. If all targets were set by the rules, there would be no legit reason to complain to the club. Tell the complainers to take their grips to the EC. Roger C.

 

Maybe you should go back and look at post 4 Jim/Canton started it.

 

Sparta is a great venue. WSRC became my home club when Rend Lake shut down. SubJr is on here to get you guys riled up when he has nothing else to do. The funny part is that the guys that run the Cardinal are ALL from Illinois. Sparta was a little over an hour from my house and about the same from where we went to college in Harrisburg. It has most definitely changed over the years. The Cardinal Shooting Center has a lot more to offer shooters. We will fix the roads and make necessary improvements needed for the traffic that we receive. I appreciate the constructive criticism as we move forward with the loss of Jack this year. We are moving towards throwing an "orange dome" target. Those are the facts. Chase, quit screwing with these guys.

 

The paint on the all orange target is the problem. I ask Brian why the paint was different on all orange than on an orange dome. His answer was i don't know.
The paint on the orange dome is so thin you can see thru it, if they used the same paint as on the all orange it would be easier to see.
But what would there to be bitched about if the targets were very visable, and easy to break, and were perfectly thrown, the only thing to bitch about would be pot holes. Very boring. Roger C.

 

For anyone that cares to look up some Cardinal Center Trap Shooting history look back to the years when I was the TD for the OSTA and the Cardinal Center. We did away with the radar gun and went to a 50 yard stake and a 9 1/2 ft T-bar to set targets. Check out those years scores and compare them to the past few years of radar gun targets.

In 2009 Big Leo broke 1196 out of 1200 targets in the Ohio State Shoot HOA shot on targets set by those standards. I can't remember what other shooters shot but I know there were a lot of high scores. Those were standard orange dome targets too. I was told that this past year there were no 100 straights in doubles by anyone.

You can not set a pair of good doubles targets by setting in a golf cart and pointing a radar gun at 1 or 2 targets, good doubles take effort and a little time, things I demanded when I was TD. You also can not set breakable doubles targets if you can't break them yourself. Any good doubles shooter knows good targets when he sees them. The clueless can't tell one from the other good or bad. I've told Luke to watch who he listens to about setting targets and I hope he pays attention to me, about targets and other things related to the CC. I spent many years helping Karen and Jack. I miss them both but they ain't around anymore so my interest in ATA trap shooting and the Cardinal Center ain't what it used to be.

 

You are absolutely correct on the doubles!

 

I agree the target setting is not what it needs to be. I happened to be behind a trap last week when the target setters went by the trap (setting doubles) waved their magic wand ( RG) and went to the next trap. You don't set good doubles in mere seconds. When a shooter pays a premium price for targets they should get a good product, not just a lick and a promise. At this point in time I would struggle with doubles if they held them on a string, but target setting doe's mean a lot to most of the folks who spend a lot of money to come to the Cardinal to see good targets, good friends, make new friends, and win some money or trophies. In my opinion the new modern gimics can't compare with the T Bar and 50 Yard Stake which served the sport very well for over 100 years. Also the orange dome will be a step in the right direction. Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

Could not agree more. The doubles targets were particularly bad. I don't know if it's a matter of a lack of maintenance or sloppy setting. But WHATEVER it is, a lot of shooters were really unhappy.

 

The hardest thing for a large club to achieve is to have all the traps set in a similar manner, for instance all the same height and distance from one end to the other of the line. Back in the 70's when I started trap shooting which ever target that club was throwing (Winchester for example) one of that companies pros would see to it that the targets were set to the best they could be.

Fifty yards is always 50 yards, you have to have defined point to start. I was taught many years ago that anything mechanical can fail. When you are using 5 or 6 radar guns that is 5 or 6 variables that can fail, plus stick them with a human and what do get? Shitty targets someplace. If that wasn't the case why would we being seeing so many traps reset.

Back in the day the only time you would see a trap being reset was after a repair or replacement. It just didn't happen but today's all americans want every trap set to their tastes and get away with it. When I was TD we didn't do that either.

I was always an early riser and I remember watching Lee Davidson out there at daylight at the Ohio State Shoot or Grand American with a bunch of other Winchester Reps setting the targets. This served the ATA very well for years but then when the bank system and the million dollar row of campers came along away went the reps and the targets started being set by Zone VP's choices and the targets got very very different bank to bank.

I used to pull squads at the grand by who was setting those traps. Most were good, some set higher targets, some softer, some overly strong. You should be able to guess which ones I shot. The targets got less and less fair, trap shooting at a large shoot became as much a signing up sport as a shooting sport. This is when the current Old Boys Buddy system was born and what it has become today.

The sense of entailment is the reason we have an ATA official from Ohio that sees no problem buying shells in excess and bragging about it when the club and state that he should be supporting is stiffed or a kid that has really been no place and done nothing feeling free to lecture about pot holes.

The only way that ATA trap will survive other than a fringe sport like skeet shooting is to change the rules back to about a 1970 rule book. Harder targets will bring more money. Money shooting served organized trap shooting for decades before this current bunch of want a bees came along, Neil Winston was the God Father of This Idea and I lay the blame not only at his feet by those delegates from the late 90's and early 2000's that allowed it.

Making the targets not only breakable but the same all along the line isn't hard but if you don't have the will or the balls to do it it will be what it is. It doesn't affect me in any way anymore other than seeing a sport I loved ruined. I know that Luke wants to do the right thing.

 

Brad Well said, but only the old time shooters will agree with you. The pussies that call them selves trap shooters today do not have a clue about the sport.
The EC is even dumber about what real trap shooting is about. I am glad my name will never be listed with the assholes that murdered the sport of trap shooting.
ROGER C.

 

Sorry Brad, the money shooters left decades ago and were replaced by trinket and point chasing shooters. The old timers, WWII and Korean War vets who'd bet on most anything are mostly gone. The kids today would sooner head to a casino and trust lady luck than work hard on something that requires tremendous dedication. Do you actually believe setting targets a bit wider and even more consistent would bring in more shooters? Let's not forget those old White Flyer and Remington targets broke much nicer than the stuff built for automatic traps-remember those puffballs? The Woolly Mammoths died off a long time ago and we'll be joining 'em soon. Our game ended and all we have to do is watch what's left and remember how it was.

 

If you guys set some challenging targets, challenging enough to make the handicap system work….I am in. Throw ‘em wide and fast. $$$$

 

The current rule book calls for targets set at a distance 49-51 yds in still air. The old rule book called for distances set at 48-52 yds. So you're saying adding distance 1 more yd. will suddenly make trapshooting more attractive? So, let's change the rule book to some distance you'd feel is necessary to bring back the $$-whatever that is-I'll let it up to you to make that determination. After all, bunker shooting is growing by leaps and bounds and all major championships are overwhelmed with participants-NOT!

 

What the rule states and what the targets are set at are two different games. When they were set with a height pole and the correct distance, with a three hole setting they are correct. The gun clubs killed that rule with the ATA's blessings. The money left when it was all moved up to high gun. the money shooters left when there was no more money in the game. The length of the targets is not the only problem with our sport. Roger C.

 

The final handicap at the 2020 Cardinal Classic had 785 shooters. That year there was also 10,000 bucks added money. This year there were 598 point shooters. Do the math about if trap shooters shoot for money or not.

 

Sure, they'll shoot for money if they think you're giving it to 'em. Ask them to play options and they'll shoot trinkets only. Do you really believe money would return if you made options mandatory? Heck, there's even quite a few pigeon shooters who play the birds only. Now there's where the money was for the winning and the sport is on life support. BTW, no ammo means fewer shooters.

 

We know what registered trap shooting is today, history tells us what trap shooting was in the hay day. Trap Shooting has always been about the money, pigeon shooting is about the money. No sport or endeavor in a capitalistic society has ever succeeded without having money involved. I'd suggest finding and reading a few programs from the 70's and 80's to understand what money shooting was.

Pa was never a real money shooting state, but read programs from Vegas, Reno, Missouri, Ohio, and even Iowa to see the history of money shooting. This is not to even mention all the calcutta's held at the chain shoots that were around before the bastardization of the name grand was developed into all the satellite GRANDS that destroyed those winter chain shoots. History is your friend if you want to understand a problem. Doing the same shit over and over and hoping for a different outcome is insanity. That is the ATA today.

 

I remember when we would have $45000. TO $50000. in the calcutas at the spring grand. Maybe the new shooters do not have the ability to shoot for a new car or $20,000 pay off. TRYING TO TELL SOME PEOPLE ABOUT HOW IT WAS IN THE HAY DAY OF SHOOTING, WELL YOU MAY AS WELL TALK TO WPT'S TOASTER. ROGER C.

 

Roger. Wasn’t that Bob Taylor’s 50 grand years ago ?
Vegas I think ?
Those days are gone, maybe forever.
Doubt if any big money shoots nowadays, maybe Flyers.

Regards…..Gerald

 

That was at the spring grand in phoenix in the 90's. I was on the board of directors, and recorded the bidders and amounts. After we added up the total bids we would put in club money, if the club made one dollar, we were liable for gambling. According to the state of AZ. Roger C.
We would shoot Bob Taylors and then run up to the Las Vegas club and shoot there on the same day. Those were in the hey days of trap shooting.

 

I've been reading Americantrapshooter for a while, and enjoy the posts. I've lurked in the weeds, and finally decided to sign up. I don't mean to be confrontational, but after reading Roger's post above, I needed to fact check like Murlo.

I looked at Roger's averages, and found that you carried a AA average for one year in your career, dating back to 1974. That being 97.03% in 1993. If you would shoot a match with anyone at any place, you must have lost a lot of times at a lot of locations.

Don't jump all over me for this. I'm just suggesting don't talk shooting ability if you can't back it up.

 

That is amazing shooting, considering those were probably three hole targets. You must not have ever shot a three hole target? That would explain a lot.
I will help you with another factoid. Averages do not win events. Scores do.

Do you think the quality of the shell is the same as in 1974?

Hundo....don't talk facts unless you have some knowledge of the facts.

Why do you think AAA was created? Was it because the scores are getting higher. Singles now is a miss and out game. It is a miss and out game often in the A class.

Do you know the difference in target angles now vs 1974 or 1993? I am am betting you do. Nice sign on name. lol

Neil would suggest a graph.

 

I can name no less than a Dozen shooters who made a lot of money over the years shooting, the majority of the targets they shot were not registered so would not reflect in the Records or books with the ATA averages in them ... I know Roger, have shot with him on and off for the past 20+ years registered as well as non registered ... I having been there would not use the listed averages (ATA) as a base line for his or anyone's ability ... The targets I have shot since starting in 1975 that are registered (guessing ) probably less than 30% of the actual targets I have shot in reality taking into consideration games, meat shoots, turkey shoots, ham shoots, Calcutta's and just about anything else you can think of ... One year at the Grand in Vandalia I broke a 97 in the handicap ( do not recall which one) , got my name on the big board for about 32 seconds (paid me little over $1,700) , that same week shooting at Tipp City and Camp Troy I managed to win a little over $4,500 (bad weather kept the scores low ) , probably shot 2,000 targets that week with 300 or 400 being registered but it paid well ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

That's a helluva first post.

 

I couldn't sit back any longer and bite my tongue. A mediocre shooter stating he'd take on anyone anywhere. Regardless of targets, 3 hole or not, there were tons of shooters that carried AA averages. And yes, averages don't win shoots, but they sure as hell reflect winning score after winning score.

I'm just saying, to say you'd take on anyone anywhere, without carrying a 97 average, would mean that you'd get beat over and over. If Brad says it, or Dave, sure, it holds some weight. Roger... not so much.

 

Really? Target difficulty doesnt matter. Troll on. LOL

Send in the clowns.

 

Isn't it a shame that the bitter old men who stood by and let Trap become what is today, sit back now, call current shooters "pussies" and lament the fact that most people don't give a rat's ass about how the sport was before.

 

Hundo I'll relate a little of my personal history from back in the 70's. In 1976 I had (I believe these are close) about a 98 singles, a 91 caps, and a 90 doubles average for the year. That year I tied Gene Sears for the grand HOA and lost in a 2 round shoot off and was a first team All American. I can't remember any of my scores but 3. I was not a doubles shooter and didn't even have a doubles gun. I shot my model 12 for everything back then but at that 76 grand I borrowed a Charles Daily O/U from Frank Ptak and shot a 98 and 97 in the doubles. I also broke a 98 in the Preliminary Handicap by missing my first and last targets.

In 1978 I won the Clay Target and I think I averaged about 98 and half that year. Over the years I wasn't an average shooter at all but an event shooter, a money shooter. Once the birds got easier my averages jumped tremendously. I actually won a lot more handicaps after the ATA went to 2 hole shorter targets from about 93 to 2004 when I quit travling. but I shot a lot higher scores.

If you check my singles and doubles averages back then and compare them to my handicap averages it was because from some time there in the 90's that I switched to a 20ga for singles and doubles because I didn't care anything at all about being an All American and went handicap shooting for the money with all my focus.

There is no doubt that the younger shooters would be better served if the ATA went back to harder targets. What they 'd have to get through their head though is that averages don't win events. What you should do is compare all the 70's clay targets winners to their averages the year they won the Clay Target and you will probably be shocked at the results.

 

I don't mean to be a jerk, I'm simply stating facts. It bothers me when people claim how good they were, but when you go back and check, it's simply not true.

I have attached copies of the 1974 and 1993 high averages. In fairness, comparing 1974 when Roger first started isn't fair, because he obviously was still improving. However, I'll make 2 points. Going back to 10 years ago (2011) when he said he'd take on anyone, his average was 94.04%. I don't need to post the high averages from 2011, because we all know it was 2 hole (easy) targets. Although not for everyone, obviously.

My second point, even if he was exaggerating, and meant he'd take on anyone back in 1993, when he was shooting his best (97.03%), there are 2 pages of shooters that would gladly take that bet, and those averages only go down to 98.37%.

Going back to 1993, when Roger had his best average, despite the fact that they were 3 hole, let's just be a little more humble and admit that taking on anyone anywhere was maybe a slight hyperbole.

I don't know Roger. Never met him personally. Don't know if he's the nicest guy in the world, or the biggest asshole in the world. And it doesn't matter, that's not the point of my post. It just irritates me when you can fact check everything now, and find that statements simply aren't true.

Lastly, let's not overlook that I'm comparing 1993 (his best year) to the other shooters in the ATA. His statement, please be reminded, was 10 years ago. This was when his average was 94.04%. None of us can say that the statement "I'll take on anyone, anywhere" from a shooter with a 94.04% average holds any merit.

 

Family Guy, I'll respond to yours as well, although most of the answers are in the above post. I don't dispute the averages in 1974 are lower, nor did I say they wouldn't be. I said that his averages started in 1974. He likely started shooting around then, so it's absolutely not fair to talk badly about his averages then, that's simply not fair. I agree, the shell quality, guns, ability to have your gun shoot where you want, voice calls, etc. all make it easier to carry a higher average now than in 1974. Point is, you're arguing a point that I didn't make, and I completely agree with you.

 

Your blatant stab at using statistics reminds me of Neil. Just plain dumb and useless statement. But, I am glad you made it.

Obvisously you never shot 3 hole targets. Let alone shot on the equipment they had then. A 97+ average was extremely rare in the 70's. Dysinger's avg was merely a bird better. That was back when the All Americans had a 91 average from the 27. And a lot of them were cheaters.

AAA exists now because the pussies in the sport want easy targets. I have to put you in that category. Not because I met you. I am making the assumption because you made that strange post. As if it took less than great talent to have a 97+ average in the 70's.

I see 1000's of posts a year. As do all the part time mods. Your post....comparing talent with a 97+ average in the 70's to todays numbers is baffling.
You get dumbest post of the year. Someone had to get it. It didn't take much talent. Not as much talent as a 97+ in the 70's.

Time for a graph

 

Putting in perspective here we must admit the best shooters in the 60's and early 70's were nearly always professional trap readers too. Fact, one of the very best of that era quit soon after the interrupters were mandatory because his scores tanked. I will not speak ill of the dead and most shooters wouldn't remember him anyway. Let's just say his first name started with a "D". If we want to make the handicap difficult again just go back to bubble gum chewing hand pulled targets, ban K-80's, adjustable impacts, combs and hot shells.

 

Hondo. I did not shoot for average. I shot in all kind of weather. You looked at averages, Try looking a my wins. I have over 150 trophies from state shoots the grand, satelite grands, zone shoots, They do not put loosers on the AZ hall of fame. Do you want to match my record? Roger C.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have said "quit" but his scores never came close to shooting over uninterrupted traps. For that I apologize!

 

Family Guy. I'm not comparing talent to 97+ average in the 70s. You're putting words in my mouth. I never one said that, so we may as well drop this. I said Roger starting shooting in the 70s. I posted the averages in the 70s out of interest. I never one said anything about shooting in the 70s.

All I said was he started registered shooting in 1974. If you want to dispute that, go ahead, but there is no argument to dispute here.

 

Roger. Are we counting A class singles and A and B class doubles as trophies? If so, good for you. But you and I both know that while averages don't tell everything, a shooter that averages higher than you will win more than you will. And with A class singles, and A and B class doubles averages, a pile of shooters shot better.

All I'm saying is your posts sound awfully proud for a person with averages as mediocre as yours.

I'm not using graphs like Neil, I'm using logic. You say you'd go head to head with anyone. Go head to head with Brad, back in any of the 40+ registered years you had. Brad's averages tell me that statistically he'd beat you routinely. And that can't be disputed.

 

Family Guy. Despite the fact that I did not once say anything about shooters in the 70s, again, I can't let untrue statements go. Your statement that 97+ was extremely
rare in the 70s just isn't true. I counted the shooters from the average book in the picture from 1974 that I posted out of interest. 180 shooters had an average above 97.20%. Your statement that 97+ was extremely rare is just simply not true.

Now, it depends on your definition of extremely rare. Having 180 shooters average over 97.2% is not extremely rare to me. However, I know you'll post an estimated number of shooters and say that based on that, there is fewer than x%. I don't care, I just don't consider that extremely rare. If you were to state that averaging over 99% is rare, I would agree.

Not statistics. Facts.

 

Hondo, Tell us what you have accomplished in your shooting carrier. Then I will know if you are capable of judging me. Or if you are just some ass whip that likes to run his mouth. That was 180 out of how many registered shooters? Why don't you send me a pm of who you are so I can look up you avg's Or are you to chicken shit to do so? Roger C.

 

Hi Roger,

There are 3 arguments going on right now, so I'll organize them to be clear.

1. You are not good enough, and never was, to make the statement that you'd take on anyone anywhere. For me to make this statement, it is irrelevant who I am, so I will not answer that question. I could put my name on here and get blasted, but regardless, it is beside the point. Whether I am an All-American, or whether I am a D class shooter, anyone can fact check your statement and know that it is not true. Regardless of average, I can fact check.

2. Scores are higher now than in the 70s. This argument is over, because Family Guy and I agree that they are. There was no argument there, just one that Family Guy thought I was arguing. This started with me saying you started shooting in 1974, that is all.

3. That averages of 97%+ were extremely rare in the 1970s. This is not true. 180 had scores of over 97.2%. That is not extremely rare. Extremely rare is the 7 people that averaged 99%. Hats off to them, they are in an extremely rare group.

 

Using a ATA average 'book' for anything, is as asinine as using the 2020 'election results' for anything .....

The number of 'fake' scores in that out-house toilet paper publication, would amaze most people .....

FWIW to another pissing contest ..... I have seen the late Leo miss more targets in a 75 target Calcutta at a small Ohio Club, than he would for the entire week of a 'grand' .....

 

Yesterday we went to a northwest Ohio meat shoot which was a 50 target program consisting of 25 16yd and the handicap 25 was from 20 yds.There were 60 plus entries and the high score was 48. 2 shooters broke 48 and the entries included some of Ohio's better shooters. The traps face South and the targets from the 16yd trap were mostly very low and the hdcp trap were mostly very high. With this said the target presentation was talked about, but I never heard any one suggest that the targets should be reset. The shooters simply shot the targets throwed not worrying about maintaining any kind of a average or whether they could break them all. They just went out, did their best and had fun. What I'm trying to say is that even though at some shoots the best shooters are not able to come close to what their ATA averages are they shoot the targets thrown and sometimes come out on top even with a score that would be an embarrassment to them at an ATA event . Yet while the average book tells us some things, it surely doesn't tell the whole story. Also at these small shoots some of the toughest competitors are folks that have never shot a registered target. Just my opinion on this post.

Dave Berlet

 

Hondo, you do not know how good or bad I was as a shooter. I did not give a hoot about 16yrd. targets. If that is all you shoot you will never be any better than a wanta be as a shooter. I did not say a would beat any challenger, I said I would take the challenge. Reading comprehension is definitley not one of your strong POINTS.
Crawl back in to your hole. Roger C.

 

Boys, it's all fun and games till someone ends up with the bull-head clap.

 

"You are not good enough, and never was, to make the statement that you'd take on anyone anywhere."

Isn't the point of going to a shoot and putting your money on the line ..... "that you'd take on anyone anywhere" ??????

I guess some NOW attend a gun and RV show to bitch about the roads ..... but most are there to "take on anyone anywhere" .....

FWIW ..... You ONLY have to be the 'best' that day in that Event ..... NOT just a statistic in a out-house toilet paper rag ......

 

I would shoot in any weather, Wind, Snow, Rain. averages be were not my goal. I shot in 15 different state shoots, eastern, central, western, zone shoots, the Grand, and 4 satalite grands. many times at many locations. I do not have to justify my ability to some one that has probably never shot any thing but practice 16's.
And does not have the balls to post his list of wins. Roger C.

 

Someone help me out here. If the rules on this site say “Do not interfere with discussions. Stay on topic!”, how did we get from here:

To here:

Sorry, just trying to add a little humor. Carry on.

 

Hondo started to disparage the record of Roger. Roger C.

 

Averages can be deceiving

That guy that won the GAH a few years ago didn't have a great caps average, LOL.

And I have a question. How do you end up in your states HOF if your "averages" aren't that great?

Like I said, averages can be deceiving.

 

No need to apologize. Humor is always better than a graph.

 

Funny thing about cyber-chat pissing contests ..... when some posts disappear, the author is soon to follow when they fail to get the 'hint' ......