What should have happened at Cardinal Classic?

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by dr.longshot, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    I got a call from a LONGTIME ATA SHOOTER this morning that just came back from the Cardinal Center, He called me he said because I was a long time Resident in this part of Ohio, close to the CC. He and 4 squads of shooters were told by LUKE you have to split your squads and shoot seperately, well words go Mixed & a heated argument ensued, LUKE and he had words on this splitting up the squads, Some not so nice words were exchanged by both parties, I don't know if this was the results of RJ STEWART, He has caused this in the past by not opening squads, I do not think Jack Fishburn runs a shoot like that, But LUKE said I RUN THIS PLACE, The last time I heard Jack Fishburn OWNS & RUNS THE CARDINAL CENTER. No well run shoot never blocks opening squads for FOUR FULL SQUADS, Well they were blocked by Luke and I feel RJ STEWART has done this in the past, They came to shoot all week, and Guess what? They all left he told me. They came to shoot together, They feel it's time to REPLACE LUKE as they feel he does not hold the Cardinal Center Interests in a good position, and I AGREE RJ STEWART has done this TOO MANY TIMES IN THE PAST, He feels what he says goes, there is no real meeting of the minds. This is the Starting time of the Buckeye Classic,

    They drove from Northern Kentucky and Southern, Ohio, Over 130 miles one way..He is a 72 yr old ATA Long Time Shooter I have shot against over the years Sr. Vet, and More than 2 Squads, Closer to 4 squads left to never return until Jackm Fishburn takes some action. He also said shooters will not shoot Bank 11 and 12 until screens are put up to block the View of the Debris filled area, I feel banks 11 & 12 should be Practice banks, and when I suggested that he agreed w/me.

    Chime in on this of how it should have been Resolved!!!!!~!

    Gary Bryant GB..................................DLS
     
  2. Gerald

    Gerald Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doc. Sure you got all the right info ?
    Something doesn't sound right.
    If I recall , they used to do this all the time at the Grand. (Vandalia)

    Regards.....Gerald
     
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  3. Shotshell99

    Shotshell99 Local Idiot

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    Difficult to say as you only have one side of the story.
     
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  4. chris henr

    chris henr Active Member

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    I Agree On Banks 11 and 12.Especially 12.They Absolutely Need To Put At Least 1 More Panel On The Bottom. It Looks Half Azzed On Those 2 Banks. But I Have No Doubt They Will Be Fixed For Next Year. Because It Is Definitely A Eye Sore Now.
     
  5. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Let me get this straight. You say 4 squads (20 shooters) showed up early in the week and demanded they all shoot together, for the whole week? And this was at the Buckeye Classic? (the shoot going on now is the Cardinal Classic) Am curious as to what Luke will say about this. How would you have accommodated them Gary?
     
  6. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    It is not in any clubs best interest to turn away shooters unless there were some games being played to shoot on certain banks where they pull multiple squads so they can pick and choose ... I do not know how they get placed on squads at Cardinal Center but I have seen some pretty clever crap get pulled over the years ... I was told that 3 individuals pulled multiple squads at a shoot so I deleted all of the squads they pulled from the program ... To say they were surprised when they went to sign up and told the squad was no longer on the program would be an understatement ... I told the Cashier to have them see me, but DO Not sign them up ... They approached me and asked what was up, I told them what I knew was a fact about the multiple squads and told them there are 3 and only 3 openings left on the entire event and they could have them if they wanted to shoot, and all are on different squads ... Two of them did and the third guy went and sat at the bar ...
    I think they were pissed but whats fair is fair, no cheating or manipulating ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  7. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    They tried to pull that trick on me a couple of years ago. The lady told me you will shoot on this squad or you will not shoot. Brad was sitting down on the other end of the counter, I said Brad I have a problem. It took him about two minutes to open up more squads. That was one of Stewart's rules, I guess Luke is in his pocket.
    They could have placed each of the four squads on the end of different banks and it would not have made a difference in the time for finishing the event. Some times the people in charge have no concept of adapting to the problem at hand.
    Roger C.
     
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  8. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    It's this weeks shoot at the cardinal, he told me they all left, I got it first hand from the horse's mouth what happened it was several squads, and Luke wanted to break the Squad up, WHY? They were at the Squadding table making entry's for this weeks shoot, They might have shoot some of the shoot, I never asked, nor was it offered. But seems extremely strange to me. I do not think I used the word DEMANDED, i feel it was inferred.

    GB........................DLS
     
  9. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    I would have opened squads, like Brad did. Luke was not being reasonable, they way they explained it to me, Luke said I am the Boss.

    GB.......................DLS
     
  10. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    This is a fact, Cardinal has a problem w/RJ STEWART, and since the Cardinal Center opened, he tries to fill/demands what squads are filled. He does not try to accomodate shooters, he wants shooters to Accomodate HIM. I have seen it first hand over the years.

    GB........................DLS
     
  11. harryone

    harryone Moderator

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    Just a note that I edited the title to say Cardinal Classic. That does not imply I am a participant.
     
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  12. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Stewart pulled some shit on me at the Grand in Texas. I shot the only 100 straight in class A. This was when a Sr. Vet could take class if he so desired. I did not make it to the office in 15 min. I was at the bottom of the hill shooting Hdk. When I went in I was told that I would have to shoot for SR.VET. He awarded the trophy to a 99. I was led to believe he was an ATA official. He is not one of my favorite people. Roger C.
     
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  13. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    It doesn't take but one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel. It's starting to look like some folks just can't stand prosperity.
     
  14. LimaShooter50

    LimaShooter50 Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Big Whoop! We should be drawing for banks and squads. When 5 men won’t shoot unless they can be together....they just might be skeeters.
     
  15. offset

    offset Member

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    R J Stuart pulls that same crap in Elysburg all the time. Refuses to open more squads take it or leave it.
     
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  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    So RJ's policy is not to open new banks until the old ones are filled. That didn't start just yesterday. That would have worked out so well-opening a new bank so 4 squads, probably wanted to shoot on the same traps too, would delay the next event. Simply take what's offered at the time and check back later. When he opens up a new bank drop your old positions and re-squad. I do it all the time. It's a pain in the butt but it's his show. All bets are off if you try to get a squad on banks 2-3 at Elysburg as those have been reserved for years.
     
  17. DoubleG

    DoubleG Active Member

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    Heard this from several shooters from NY. Told all squads were full and they could not squad. This was for Thursday first handicap. My friend and I did get on a squad so they must have opened up some banks. Time we squaded was around 9:30. Sad to hear that shooter traveling that distance could not shoot. Left with bad impression about CC.
     
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  18. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    'scuse my ignorance, but WHO is this LUKE fellow out there.

    I haven't been there in a few years, and I don't know if he took Brad's place or what.
     
  19. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I'm still not clear; are we talking about 5 shooters wanting to squad together or are we talking about 4 full squads (20 shooters) ????
     
  20. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I get it was 4 full squads. We had a club in AZ. do that same dumb trick to 5 shooters also. the reason was if they shot it would make the event to long. They were all in motor homes and they all left the club. Pretty dumb decision on managements part. Some one should inform Mr. Fishburn about the attitude of this Luke. Roger C.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2019
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  21. Shotshell99

    Shotshell99 Local Idiot

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    Luke is the Trap Shooting Manager at the CC.
     
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  22. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Trapshooting is a sport first. Then it is a business. In business, "The customer is always right." If a business is not willing to accommodate its customers, it's not really in business.

    The customer base is slowly dying. It makes absolutely no sense to disenfranchise those who are left.
     
  23. Shotshell99

    Shotshell99 Local Idiot

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    Agreed on the above if that is the case, but at this point, with one side of the story it may be best to say, "alleged" attitude.
     
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  24. Shotshell99

    Shotshell99 Local Idiot

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    Unless the customer is requesting something beyond policy or rules that is detrimental to the business. In this case, the continuity of the shoot. Sounds like these shooters were given an opportunity to shoot and were upset that they didn't get exactly what they thought they were entitled to. Again, still one side of the story out there so that may not be the full answer, just a suggested scenario. Adding squads while there were still positions open could have 'put off' many more (squadded) shooters with longer waits between events and put finishing the program or the shoot-offs at risk. There have been plenty of times that I didn't get banks or times I wanted, but I still abided by the policies of shoot management and shot rather than looking for special treatment or leaving in frustration and damning the organization.
    Oleolliedawg's squadding suggestion works just fine too. Not convenient, but I want to shoot, not drive home angry.
     
  25. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I don't know what went on but I do know that Shooters today are really spoiled. I've suggested that you get to squad with whoever you want in 16's and doubles but the computer picks your squad and post for the handicap as you sign up. We did this for years at the grand without a computer. If the ATA would do this it would eliminate so many problems and make the handicap fair for every shooter.

    No other Championship sport allows you to pick your time, or your lane, or which tee you play the hole from, or who you play with. No way does the grand deserve or earn the name world anything. Frank Little always said that the only thing amateur about the ATA was the people running it.
     
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  26. kilmon

    kilmon Active Member

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    Seems odd that a shoot of this size didn't have pre-squad available???? If it was available, then these guys really have no room to complain.
     
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  27. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Doesn't sound like this group came to compete. They could have shot together all day long on Bank 5 and even saved themselves some money. I don't blame Luke at all (and no one has heard CC side of the story) - I'd want every squad taking the line to have 5 shooters and I wouldn't open up anything if I had open spots to fill. This group could have pre-squadded but they roll in and expect special treatment.
     
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  28. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    If it's 4 squads wanting the same bank back to back that seems unreasonable. If it's opening new squads so they could shoot later in the day together then they should have been told to come back later when earlier squads are filled. This is done in NY and I have no problem with it. Has to be fair to all parties.
     
  29. Diesel43

    Diesel43 Member

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    Presquad was available and we never have a problem with it. We presquadded 4 people for all events. We requested banks 9-12 and middle flights since that's the area our campers were. Those banks and those times are exactly what we got.
     
  30. kilmon

    kilmon Active Member

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    Filling open posts and banks before opening additional squads isn't done to accommodate RJ Stewart or CC. It's done to accommodate the several 100 other shooters trying to get on with their day. It's the way all well run shoots should be handled. An ever increasing number of shooters come to shoot, not sit around all day.
     
  31. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Is it true about Luke and the pacifiers around his neck?
     
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  32. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    C'mon you guys, what Trap Program Manager/Tournament Director is going to carry around pacifiers to give to complaining customers? None - they're a joke for his employees, people who work at CC.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2019
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  33. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The bank that has the least shooters can always be used for a late squad. It depends on how the late shooter present them selves to the management Late arrivales should always be taken care of. Guys that set around and want to squad at the last minute can try a persons patients. Be nice, you shoot. Get pushy go home pissed. Roger C.
     
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  34. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    You do not know anything about what happened, stay \out of it, you are now blocked, you know so little
     
  35. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    You are Ignored/not blocked.
     
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  36. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    It takes time and effort to build a reputation that you can be proud of, one major eeeffff up and it can be destroyed in an instant .. I do not know what happened but I would hope any person in charge would have a back up plan just in case something happens out of the ordinary … Saying I'm the Boss is not a good enough reason … WPT … (YAC) …
     
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  37. DoubleG

    DoubleG Active Member

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    If a shoot has to be finished by a certian time. Would it be wise to state in their program that they will limit the number of squads for each event?
     
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  38. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Your suggestion might not be related to the incident described here, but yes, you can limit the number of squads per event to meet time constraints. They do that in Connecticut.
     
  39. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    If you look at the program you can see that every event had an "entries close at" time. But that doesn't mean you get to tack on extra squads while there are open squads that need to be filled. And here I thought millennials were the ones with an outrageous sense of entitlement.
     
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  40. Shotshell99

    Shotshell99 Local Idiot

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    Lots of empty spots and / or no squads on the first few flights at the Classic; seemed like more than usual for the CC. Unsure if this is due to people pre-squadding online and being placed on these flights that they didn't want, not returning the squads, then showing up after the event started and re-squadding, thus drawing out the events. If they re-squadded early in the day after the event started, that would prevent more squads from being tacked on and waste spots. For an online presquad the options are, 'early, middle, or late.' Those that chose 'early' may have been squadded (placed) earlier then they wanted and done the above. The CEB was also open on Monday afternoon, along with online, so it seems like there was ample opportunity to get in there somewhere and potentially fill the early (empty) flights unless they were in fact taken and unused. I wish more people would return squads they don't use if that is the case, as it would certainly help. Not sure what else would help.?
     
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  41. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    The Cardinal Center has never had a time constraint that I ever heard or seen in all the years they have been open, always finished early and CEB Closed early a lot of times that they should not have done.

    GB...............................DLS
     
  42. DeadEye637

    DeadEye637 Member

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    Didn't I read somewhere on this forum that the ATA is losing money - for the 1st time... Ghee, when I read c**p like this is happening it is not hard to understand why.
     
  43. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I'm quite sure you've been at the forefront of CC operations since day number one, right? Yeah, right.
     
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  44. Smokintom

    Smokintom Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Let me add this. Went to a local shoot yesterday and talked to a fellow shooter I've known for years. He drove 2 hours on Thursday to shoot the 200 handicaps. When he got up to squading at 9:30 he was told that he couldn't squad in for the first 100 handicaps!!! At 9:30 in the morning the first 100 caps was closed??? Upset was an understatement. He said the H with this S and drove the 2 hours back home. In my opinion if there going to do that than they should just shoot the 200 handicaps that day and leave the singles out of it.
     
  45. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Sounds like it would have been wise to check the shoot program, if the breakdown of the day's events were in there, BEFORE THE DRIVE .....

    Let's do some cyber-fiction ..... NOTHING to do with this person .....

    Let's say Bubba is there early, signs up, and shoots a 92, that is high score for the red-haired, left-handed, one-eyed, shooter that wears pink pants, most of the event ...... Bubba knows that plastic duck and a point is his ..... only a few more shooters to finish, and only one that is in the same running ..... Sure enough the person breaks a higher score .....

    Bubba, all sad because it would be his first plastic duck and point, grumbles to his friends ..... One of them tell him ..... you know that shooter was allowed to enter AFTER they closed the entries ..... don't you ..... They must know someone, or paid someone off .....

    Bubba is now pissed and on the war-path, and EVERYONE he tells the story to agrees with him that he was "robbed" .....

    Would that be "better" publicity for the shoot ????????

    Shame on the shooter for not checking first ... And double shame for telling people it is someone's fault other than their own .....
     
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  46. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Something is off about this. If you look at the program for that day there are three separate events. First is HC, then Sgls then another HC event. First event entries were supposed to close at 11:00 - shooter is saying they closed it at 9:30?


    Thursday, August 15, 2019
    STARTING TIME 9:00 AM
    CEB and Practice Trap Open 8:00 AM
    Event #7 Dawson’s Handicap
    Entries close at 11:00 AM.
    100 HANDICAP TARGETS
     
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  47. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    User 1, You are wrong, anyone that shows up at nine thirty in the morning should be able to shoot. If the club has to throw to many targets in one day and not accomadat the shooters they are hurting them selves and their customers.
    Bubba is not the only shooter that counts as a valued customer. Management should limit events not shooters.
    Roger C.
     
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  48. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    I believe he wasn't the only one. I don't know where this screwup originated.
     
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  49. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Management?
     
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  50. chris henr

    chris henr Active Member

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    Just Throwing This Out There. Maybe They Had To Take Into Consideration How Long They Were Making The Trap Help Work. I Was There Thursday And I Shot Both Handicap Events. I Heard A Person Mention That They Cut Off Entries Early But I Do Not Know This For A Fact. I Pre Squadded So I Didn't Have To Deal With The Long Lines In The Morning.
     
  51. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Poor management has sunk many successful business. Not caring about customers is at the top of the list. All you have to do is look at the ATA. C.C. had better take a good look at their manager. (I'm the boss LUKE) Seems to have an EGO problem. I have been in business for 57 years and always respected my customers. Piss one of and he will tell a lot of his friends sooner or later it will come full circle. And BITE you on the ass... Roger C.
     
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  52. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    I sure wish somebody would come out and say whether or not Luke was wearing pacifiers around his neck.
     
  53. Columbus

    Columbus Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I don't know if he was wearing them around his neck but they were for his employees- just a joke among them that may have been misunderstood. There are pictures and comments from the employees who got the "reward".
     
  54. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Those "employees," were they paid staff or volunteers? Or both?
     
  55. Shotshell

    Shotshell Member

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    Lot's of unanswered questions here, where are all the investigators that are all over other threads?
    Let's get some answers for DLS and Phantom.
     
  56. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    There are no answers only speculation until both sides of the story are made available, if they ever do … People can make mistakes or bad calls sometime in haste when they just may not have the time to think it out totally and completely … Shooters (people in general ) can be a little thin skinned at times and make demands that are not reasonable or even logical for that matter … I have been on both sides of that a time or three in my life time … WPT … (YAC) …
     
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