PSSA to draw for banks - except for selected events....

The PA State Shoot and other championships will draw for banks. That is what their recent flyer says. But there are certain events that will not happen.

I don't get the second part.

This forum has been all over PA to do this. If you have more information on this please let us know.

I report. You decide
merlo out.

 

Check out the PSSA website. They have a complete explanation.

 

Well it doesn't make any sense to me. Why not have banks drawn for all the events? Who was this decision for?

 

Rules modified for "7 shooters" on the preferred presquadding. I couldn't make that up. So let's hear who the 7 shooters are that keep their precious banks.

 

Guessing they paid for the privilege of shooting the banks they want…..At least the PSSA management is honoring their commitment….as it should be.

Paul H
Imperial, PA

 

I can't wait to see the few chosen squads the always have open post
I hope I get put on one of those squads. I understand for the AIM/SCTP days teams with multiple squads are not on bank 1,7,9ect. But random draw but on banks next to each other

 

Exciting to see PA at least try to make it look like they want fair competition! Then they post there are 7 shooters that will not be treated like everyone else. How do they think we will react to that?

 

Paul, when we bought the new PatTraps there was a program where a shooter or squad could purchase a trap and get rewarded by having preference on the bank of their choice for a certain number of years. I don't recall the details but that's why those squads have preference to those banks. As I understand it the time period will soon end, and there weren't that many, anyway. PA bob said just 7 remain, which sounds about right.

 

Mike....thanks for responding. That is the equivalent of admitting PA was participating in systemic cheating. Good to see the shoot will be almost fair. Seven shooters getting preferred treatment is still bullshit but I applaud PA for trying to make it look fairer. Many would be interested to see who the elite 7 shooters are.

 

Did you ever really have trouble getting on the bank you want in the last few years? I didn’t, and I’m not on any preferred list. You must really be scared of those 7 guys beating you…

 

The elite 7 paid for an advantage. It is cheating.

 

Blah blah blah. I say bring ‘em.

 

I am guessing they are trying to make the shoots in Elysburgh a competition? That gonna piss of the elite that think they deserve to be coddled.

Except for the remaining 7 cheats! Oh did I say that? It was sanctioned cheating.

 

The biggest bitchers will now be the average chasers. I predict that somehow the PSSA will relent and put the 27 yard shooters on better banks. Watch and see. It's coming!

 

Could be a culture change in PA.

 

Lol- can anyone here name one of the people that got a preferred bank that won consistently? I’d love to hear who that is, and I’d walk right up to them and say you didn’t deserve the wins you got because some internet tough guy thinks they “cheated.”

This message was brought to you by someone that didn’t ever contribute a penny to the PSSA other than when he shot there and paid for his entry fees and never got a “preferred” bank other than when I asked for it and it was available.

 

Yes but I won't.... and why should we have to do that to force PA to run a fair shoot.

PA got money from shooters wanting the better banks. It was accepted cheating. Accepted by those that benefited. Rather than us naming the those that paid for the advantages, how about you name the fools that came up with the plan. And name the elite seven that refuse to give up their precious banks.

 

So, in other words you won’t say who you have a problem with (since you can name who wins consistently and donated money to the PSSA), you’ll just complain about them online behind a screen name? Sounds real productive to me…


You think since you won’t name the people that you evidently have a problem with, you’ll think that I should name the people that came up with the program where the PSSA was looking for donations (to upgrade traps, if I remember correctly) and offered benefits to the people that helped the club? I don’t see the logic there. Maybe next you’ll say that you donated money to them (other than when you played that Great Eastern purse) and turned down the preferential treatment? Then, I’d say you have a leg to stand on for your gripe.

 

I don't know who's cheating or not. But it is significant that the "powers that be" decided to make at least something resembling change.
What is also significant, is that all the out of state shooters I have talked to, are all familiar with banks 7 & 8.

 

Those are actually my favorite banks on the property!

 

Well it takes all kinds.
I suppose that would be one reason you don't worry about the taxes on your winnings.

 

I’ve broken some pretty good scores on those banks. My bet is that you don’t pay much in taxes on winnings if you are concerned about 7 people getting preferential banks, either, Skippy. Or if you can’t break a winning score on Banks 7 and 8.

 

Skippy?

I thought this thread would be longer before the playground name calling started.
That’s the first and LAST time I want to see that CRAP

Fair warning

Flyersarebest
Moderator

And BTW I was walking the entire length of the place a LONG time ago. Maybe before some of you even started. It was like shooting in 4 different time zones then. I shake my head and laugh every time I read or hear anything about “banks”.

 

And just to clarify. I don’t agree with anyone that says it doesn’t matter what “bank” you shoot. Of course it does .
If it didn’t, you wouldn’t have people paying to shoot the better traps. And from the sounds of it that is what happened. And if all of that is just someone whining, WHY did they decide to draw for banks?

That is a rhetorical question. We all know why they did it.

 

I don’t see where anyone said it didn’t matter what bank they shot on, but I could have missed that.

 

So it DOES matter? So the stories about better banks are true. And the people that donated to the PSSA get to shoot on those banks.
Got it

 

In the 70's and 80's we walked the whole line. I shot best on the old traps by the old camp ground. One time my squad passed the squad ahead of us between the 2nd and 3rd fields because that squad waited for a wagon and road all the way to the top and we just walked by the practice traps and past them.

 

The shortest walk was from the last trap we shot on the bottom, to the bar. If you did it just right the last trap was right out front.
Low man buys!

 

Did I say it mattered? Look above, I like Banks 7 and 8, but I’ve shot them all and never thrown a temper tantrum over not getting where I was hoping for. You just said you used to walk the entire line, I’ll bet good scores got broken then, too (even if it was before my time at Elysburg). Walk out and look in the trap houses, they’re all throwing the same targets. Background looks different, but that’s it.

If anyone here that is complaining donated the money to the club and took the high road, turned down the preferential treatment, good on them. But, I’m betting no one here is in that boat, just griping. The club needed money for new traps, and rewarded the people that helped. If anyone thinks that’s not fair- what is in life? Should’ve pulled their pocketbook out and donated like the people that are being called “cheaters.” I’m still waiting on anyone to tell me who was in that group that “cheated”, got preferential treatment and consistently wins.

Again, this is coming from someone that didn’t donate or get preferential treatment.

 

Sounds like the people that donated that money are getting screwed.

Targets are all the same.
Setting of said targets is the same.
Only thing different is the background, and from what I’ve been reading on this thread that’s not a big deal.
Sounds like one bank is as good as any other.

SO, if everything is pretty much the same, what is this “preferred “ treatment?
How are these people being”rewarded”?

I read it twice just to make sure, “ The club needed money for new traps and REWARDED the people that helped.”

If there is no difference in the banks it sounds to me like they aren’t getting much of a reward.

 

Awesome thread here.....
There is this fellow that implies that just because some of these guys were part of the cheatin doesn't mean they always won. It's ok to cheat if we don't know the names.

And now PSSA is advertising their new stance on cheatin. The announcement says we are done with the cheatin as soon as the cheats get their monies worth. The systemic cheatin is over...after this shoot.

 

Flyer's I made that walk many times.

 

Hey everyone- our club needs money because we need new traps, if you donate it, we’ll let you shoot on the banks you want for X amount of years.

If I remember that’s what the PSSA said. Some people donated money, and got to shoot on the banks that they wanted to. Some people didn’t donate, me included, and we had to take what was left, as far as banks go. To me, it sounds like some people donated money, and got to shoot on the banks they wanted to for as long as the PSSA told them that they could. Those years are coming to an end for most of them. To me it sounds like both parties held up to their side of the deal and no one is getting screwed.

 

Where did I say it was OK to cheat? You quote where I said that and I’ll say I was wrong, but I didn’t say that, so we know how that goes. Also, the PSSA hasn’t said anything about cheating on the preferential treatment for banks- just that the agreement that they had with most people that donated is coming to a close. They’re still honoring it for the 7 people that have time left on the agreement, so they certainly aren’t saying that it was cheating. The contract is being fulfilled.

Also, I never said it’s ok to cheat if we don’t know the names. I asked YOU who was winning consistently after they got the preferential treatment. You couldn’t or didn’t answer which is fine. Don’t mistake your non-answer for me saying that cheating is ok. Not logical.

Go to the PSSA and shoot well, have fun, enjoy the traps that these “cheats” you talk about helped provide. Or don’t- it doesn’t really matter to me, way less than what bank I shoot on at Elysburg.

 

I love how it’s, “the banks they wanted”.

For all the people that never went to the PA state shoot why don’t you tell them WHY those donators chose those banks.
That would probably explain what their REWARD was.

 

Low man buys ??? Brad ?? I bet that did not happen.

 

Well, that’s true, isn’t it? They all wanted Banks 1-3, because they have a consistent background, and one where you’re shooting into trees. They must like that, personally I like shooting into a sky background better, hence why I like Banks 7 and 8 (also a consistent background) I’ve broken good scores on all of the above. Even on 5 & 6. I can’t remember if it was Bank 9 or 10 but I won some doubles trophies down there, too.

Is everyone is sooo afraid of these 7 guys beating them? Or however many people it was after they donated their own money for the benefit of everyone complaining here (well, at least the ones that actually shot at Elysburg after the new traps were installed). I’m thinking if anyone is so concerned about what bank someone else is shooting on, they probably already lost before they called for the first target.

 

79 Roy, I made the walk, can't remember getting into my wallet.

 

I wonder if you remember my shell carrier at the Maryland State Shoot? You accused me of trying to distract other shooters. She did a good job, carrying my shells also. Have a good day and pet my old pheasant when you walk by him.

 

I didn't realize I had to memorize the names of the cheaters in Pennsylcheats. Who knew there would be a quiz? I just shot. I trusted shoot management. Strange I never got on banks 1-3. And here the cheats cronies had the system rigged years ago?!

This almost ranks up there with the "score yer own game" PA and WV had.

PA should be sanctioned for this!

 

79ROY, I can't say that I can but back then I was very aware of my suroundings. I've beem putting my old photos onto SD cards and have a lot from the Maryland State Shoots the years I took pictures for T&F. Maybe I have a photo, I plan to upload some of them to my ututbe channel this summer some time.

 

You hear that? The cheats donated their money for your benefit.

Everyone should feel better now? The cheating will continue thru the PSSA State Shoot and then they say it will stop. Move along nothing to see here.

 

Y'a mean only the PA cheaters, right? Don't they do the same thing at the Cardinal center? The only difference there is that Jack Fishburn reached for his wallet & PSSA had to raise their funding through various programs. Bob Stewart ran both venues. Just so you know, the guys who came up with the money to buy the traps were a bunch of well healed geezers who very seldom shot a score good enough to make the leader board. We lost two more of them this year. Soon they'll all be gone and as personal friends I'm offended to have their memory and legacy to PSSA and the shooting world as cheaters. You want names? How about Tom Burkey and HY McAlister?

 

I would say they were taking advantage of the situation made available to them. Probably not unlike most of us would given the opportunity. After all they were working/playing within the rules, however special, laid out by the PSSA correct??

 

How were they taking advantage of the situation?

PSSA- “We need money for new traps, donate and we will give you preferential treatment for the banks you want to shoot on.”

Donors- “Here’s my check.”

PSSA- “What bank do you want?”

I’m assuming then the donor said what bank they wanted, and proceeded to shoot on those banks. So again, my question remains how they took advantage of the situation?

 

Sanctioned for breaking what ATA rule? There very well could be one that covers this, but I’m not aware of it.

I don’t think anyone asked for a list of people that cheated, I asked for anyone that donated money to the PSSA, got preferential treatment on bank assignments, and consistently won. No one has named a name, yet. Also- are you saying the people that donated money are the cheaters? See my post above, the PSSA made an offer (open to ALL shooters, not a select few), and some people decided to donate and take the perks that were offered. How is that cheating? Because they got banks that you supposedly couldn’t? I am sorry, but I don’t think anyone here that says they could not get on Banks 1, 2, or 3 has shot at Elysburg for a while, spots were open.

 

Personally, I never felt bad. But then again, I wasn’t worried going to a shoot about 7 guys that got banks they wanted to shoot on, either. Maybe I’m just more positive than you guys, or you’re just not very good at trap shooting.

 

I was never worried about that AA shooter that scored his own and shot 100 on the GAH. I can't remember his name. I don't think he has won consistently. Now I see where you are coming from. I don't need to know the cheats. I don't need to know who was good at cheating or taking advantage of a situation.

I need to know management has our backs.

 

His name is Adam Stefkovich

 

The relevant pieces of the puzzle are that some people (who cares who it was) gave money (regardless of cause) and were rewarded by being able to shoot certain banks (at least perceived advantage) by the PSSA.
And somehow everyone on the thread can't shoot and that's the big issue. Lol. What a monumental leap!!
It seems that the buried lead here is why the PSSA needed money in the first place??
I have some pretty good experience in the financial workings of sportsmans clubs. It was a really rare occasion that we couldn't cover upgrades simply by the revenue of throwing targets. In the instances that it happened, the donors were simply paid back, sometimes with interest.

 

Oh, I never said no one could shoot, just that being bothered by someone getting a bank they wanted, and going further by saying they CHEATED, probably says they aren’t winning very much. What if you get Bank 7, shoot a 98 in the handicap…then someone shoots Bank 1, and breaks a 99. No preferential treatment, they just got the bank that everyone seems to want. Did they cheat? Do they not deserve the win over you? I don’t think so, but it seems like some people on this thread might think so.

You also said that you have some good experience in the financial workings of sportsman’s clubs…how many of them had 52 fields that needed traps replaced? Big difference between a club with a few traps and one with 52.

Life isn’t always fair, folks. Don’t hate someone just because they stepped forward when a club needed something and took a perk that was offered to them.

 

I personally don’t see any parallel between the GAH winner you’re talking about and the people that donated to the PSSA. Other than being from PA, of course. But- what situation did those donors take advantage of? An offer was made to everyone to donate funds for the traps with the same perks. Some people donated and took the perks, others didn’t, and didn’t get the perks. What was taken advantage of in that situation?

 

And the PSSA shoots haven't been fair for a long while.......maybe next shoot. Dont show up late.

 

Think the winners will be any different than previous shoots?

 

Hey 10 point, didn't anyone ever teach you about ratios?? You know the true science called mathematics?? Four traps 52 traps makes no difference. Lol

 

[QUOTE="10-point, post: Maybe I’m just more positive than you guys, or you’re just not very good at trap shooting.[/QUOTE]

 

I know ratios and percentages, as in if you had to replace 50% of the traps at Elysburg (26), that’s a lot more money to come up with than replacing 100% of the traps at a 4-trap club (4). Sound about right to you?

 

[/QUOTE]

I never said no one could shoot, I said “or you’re not very good at trap shooting” to another member that I was quoting. So again, I never said “no one on this thread can shoot.” Nice try, though.

 

Also, to everyone on this thread, I might not agree with you on this topic, but I’d still shoot with any one of you, and even have a drink after the shooting is done. We’re all trapshooters, after all.

 

“I never said no one could shoot, I said “or you’re not very good at trap shooting” to another member that I was quoting. So again, I never said “no one on this thread can shoot.” Nice try, though.[/QUOTE]

You actually said “you guys” and that doesn’t sound like you were talking about just ONE person.

Well at least you listened when I told you I didn’t want to see any more of the crap like you posted when you called a guy “skippy”

So you have that going for you.

And no doubt you would squad with anyone here. The question is, would they want to squad with you?

 

Well at least you listened when I told you I didn’t want to see any more of the crap like you posted when you called a guy “skippy”

So you have that going for you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks?

 

Very good! And 52 traps is 13x more than 4 traps which should translate into 13x more revenue!
See what I'm getting at......OMG!! lol

 

OK, so if you are this sportsman’s club financial guru- why didn’t you step up when they were collecting donations and just show Elysburg how to pay for their traps? That way, all this “cheating” you are appalled at wouldn’t have happened.

Are you going to offer your services to save all the dying trap clubs since you can use all that extra revenue they should have to buy new equipment?

 

Give it a rest
Your “Kumbaya” about shooting with and having a drink with the people that didn’t agree with you should have been the end of it .

 

No Kumbaya at all, just saying I wasn’t upset with anyone because we don’t agree on this matter. You’ve got to admit I made a point about M Johnson saving the dying trap clubs, though, didn’t I?

 

I don’t think you made any point at all.

And from the lack of support you received on any of your posts it looks like I’m not the only one that thinks that.

 

Well, if he has some formula to make trap clubs prosperous and profitable, I’m sure a lot of clubs would appreciate the help/information and he obviously didn’t offer it to Elysburg, so maybe that was more talk than reality? Lack of support doesn’t bother me, I’m fine standing on my own 2 feet.

 

There is only one person doing a lot of talking on this thread and it isn’t M Johnson.

 

No argument there, but I never claimed to be a financial guru for trap clubs, either.

 

Since most of your posts have the words , “ I never said that” or “ show me where I said that”,
please show us where MJohnsonn said he was a financial guru.

That was you trying to be sarcastic. The same way you tried to imply that you were smarter than them by calling them “skippy”

Yeah I know, “you never said you were smarter”. Or “ show me where I said I was smarter”.

The post where you show where M Johnson said he was a financial guru or your post acknowledging that he “never said that” will be the last one on this thread.

I can guarantee that.

 

Financial guru were my words, what he said was- “I have some pretty good experience in the financial workings of sportsmans clubs. It was a really rare occasion that we couldn't cover upgrades simply by the revenue of throwing targets.”- copied and pasted from his post.

You’re right, a lot of my posts were saying “I never said that.” But that was all truthful, too. He said he had some pretty good experience in the financial workings of sportsman’s clubs and that it was rare upgrades couldn’t be covered by the revenue of throwing targets. That wasn’t the case at Elysburg, obviously, but if he had a way for them to do it, then he should have. I also don’t agree making upgrades for a smaller club is the same case at a club with 52 traps. I understand ratios and revenue as well, but there’s still a big dollar difference between buying 1-12 traps, and 52. Elysburg got them when needed, and I don’t know why everyone is faulting the shooters or the club for taking donations to better the club.


Again, I’m not worried about the 7 people that get preferential treatment. Some people here evidently are, and that’s too bad- Elysburg is a nice place to shoot and I’ve always thought they ran a good shoot there.

 

Can anyone name me a club or shoot in the country where someone (club officer, volunteer, donor, good-ol-boy, etc) doesn't get some sort of preferential treatment when it comes to squads, banks, traps, starting time, free hot dog, etc? I'll eagerly await the answer.

 

Do most of those clubs get to open their doors and throw targets more than 18 days a year?

 

Number of days is not as relevant as number of targets thrown.

 

I've been hearing about the dissatisfaction about not drawing for banks in Pennsylvania for a few years now. I figured this thread was a continuation with some other hard facts mixed in with it. I wholly agree with drawing banks and making competition as fair as possible. No we can never get to perfection. But we should always make the effort for the good of the whole. In the case of Ellysburg, I can't understand why anyone would knowingly taint there own organization by committing an act like this one. There are too many better options than this one.
For the record, I have been to those grounds and remarked, on this site, of how nice the place is to shoot. And I can say that the shoot I was there for was well ran and enjoyable.
I never called anyone a cheater.

 

Sure it is. Elysburg only throws 100, 200, or 300 targets a day, just like pretty much every other club in the country.

 

Like a DEI company?

 

It's only 7 now. That's what we read. Who would try to fool us?

 

Probably no one, since it hasn’t affected much of anything in the years since the preferential treatment started.

 

So how long has the cheating been going on.....I mean preferential treatment. That's the term right?

The joke is PSSA is promising to be absolutely fair in the future and almost fair now.

You can bet the 27 yard shooters will have the prime banks. Everyone else draws for banks.

 

Where did that come from? Just curious.

 

BTW Merlo, this was a good one.

 

True right? It will make everyone happy.

It is the "occupy the 27" crowd that is over handicapped and the 27 yard point chasers that will whine the most.

Remember you heard it from the pink cat.

 

Nice non-answer. I’m guessing you didn’t hear it from anyone remotely related to making decisions at the PSSA and someone that probably just wanted something else to complain about.

Also- if it’s the “occupy the 27” non-competitive shooters that are getting the banks they want, who cares if they aren’t even competitive???

 

So why didn’t you step up to offer the financial advice to Elysburg when they needed new traps? Still think you can help the dying trap clubs in the U.S.? I’ll bet a lot would take you up on that now and in the next few years…

 

Yes of course, that's the answer. I should go on tour across the country and give common sense advice on how to manage money.
A little point of fact for you, I didn't know anything about it until the damage was done. And how could I have? Just another one of your mindless post. LOL
The idea that this organization waited until they needed to replace all 52 traps at once is very telling on it's face. Or was it just someone's ambitious pipe dream?!
Either way they obviously didn't have the means to pay the bill. Which indicates that all the money they made wearing the original 52 traps out, was somehow not available. Which genius among the people you are so hell bent on defending ask about the Benjamins?
So, obviously you have an axe to grind. And that's ok. I would suggest you take it up with the individuals that put you in an ultimately defenseless position!!

 

Holy cow, MJ- can you imagine the complaining if they replaced the traps in batches? Not only would they be complaining about which banks they were shooting on, then there would be the added complaints of “Oh my- I had to shoot on one of those old, worn out traps!” And probably other people would complain they had to shoot “on that new trap with a newer, stronger spring!” I know the second one is BS- but can’t you hear a trapshooter making that comment? I sure can.

I don’t have an axe to grind with anyone, but I don’t see the logic in ANYONE complaining about things being unfair at the PSSA when it comes to the banks that are shot on (there could be other issues that I’m not aware of). You can break a good score on any of them. This whining about the preferential treatment, or whatever anyone wants to call it is nonsense.

I didn’t suggest you go on any tour, but since you “have some pretty good experience in the financial workings of sportsmans clubs.” I thought you would be able to offer some advice for those struggling clubs. Also- how did you not know about the PSSA looking for donations when they were replacing the traps? Were you not going to Elysburg at that time? It was very well known and I believe publicized with signs at the club and maybe in the programs, too (it’s been a while so I could be wrong about the programs). Not a mindless post, just calling out that if you had the answers on how to do better, why didn’t you step up?

 

Sure you can break a good score on any one of them... but you were able to pay for 52 traps by selling the best traps to "donors" wink wink. Your donors knew the difference. winky winky. $$$

You keep coming here and digging this hole acting like there was no advantage sold. Bad strategy.

Best just say we mucked up and could have made better decisions with financial planning. Let the customers know PSSA is a much fairer shoot now. New management different attitude. jmho wink wink.

 

Too bad they don't have a truck load of Woody Brown targets to throw on those "preferred" banks.

 

Got something in your eye?

I just don’t have a problem with what the PSSA did, and frankly, don’t know why any of you do, either. I never felt at a disadvantage when I signed up for a shoot there. Sorry you weren’t confident enough for that, too.

 

Ten point.....there are nearly 100 posts on this thread. No one agrees with that crap. Your position is indefensible. All the shooters that purchased your cheat plan felt differently. Good thing right? Those wanting that advantage bailed your club out.

The seven shooters that are left on the PA cheat plan felt differently. The State Association disagreed with you. Back in the more honest days the shooters walked the trap line.

Did you alert the vendors to this scheme?

My question is why you? Why is it your job to defend the indefensible?

 

First of all- the state association doesn’t disagree with me- drawing for banks has nothing to do with the preferential treatment given to some people for bank assignments. And, if they didn’t agree with me, why do those 7 shooters still get the bank they want? Also, the shooters are still taking the deal that they got from donating their money to the association, so what makes you think they feel differently?

What do you mean about alerting vendors to the scheme? The vendors at Elysburg were amongst the ones that donated the money, so someone must have done that.

Why me? No reason, I just think there’s a bunch of people on here complaining about a problem that doesn’t really exist. If you didn’t win in Elysburg in the last 20 years, it isn’t because you weren’t getting the right bank.

No one agrees with me? That’s ok, I still don’t mind sticking up for the PSSA when other posters on here are trying to drag it through the mud on this topic.

 

No one agrees with me?

Hehehe, you should have left off the question mark

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll take that into consideration.

 

Alrighty then....I am calling bullshit! Name the vendors that thought this cheating scheme was a good idea. And it is a cheat scheme. Name the vendor(s). Did Krieghoff think cheating on their sponsored shoot was a great idea?

 

Tomorrow is the day let's see how it goes

 

Where are the results?

 

The results are very nicely formatted on the PSSA website. In the banner, drop down: shoot results, and see the individual scores, winners, payouts and attendance.