We need more Trapshooting Posts, or IDEAS

Come on Guys you have some good Ideas, Tell us about your HONEST GOOD IDEAS about Trapshooting


GB...........................DLS

 

Gary, am I correct in thinking that you are referring to good ideas to improve and grow ATA registered trapshooting?

If so, there have been many ideas and suggestions already made by many credible people on this website. Some of them are still shooting ATA targets and some have quit shooting ATA targets.

Some say there is already already a process in place for the rank and file members to use to make requested changes to the ATA rules and policies. However, I cannot find a change request process listed in the table of contexts in the ATA Rule book. If there is an official documented process that clearly identifies the how to steps for changing the rules and policies of the ATA, would someone please post a link or tell me where I can read it.

As I see it, the number one priority for the rank and file members and ex-members of the ATA is to get their state delegate and alternates to promise that they that they will work with the other members of the BOD and develop an official change request process that identifies each step required to change the ATA rules and policy. In my opinion, the number one priority for the delegates/BOD is develop, finalize, approve and implement the change request process. This process must provide for total accountability, total transparency in a timely manner by posting on the ATA website the status of the each change request as it moves through each step of the process. After the BOD, EC and the ED has approved the process for requesting changes to the ATA rules and policies, then they must add this change process to the ATA rule book.

I don't see any valid reason why a change request process can't be developed, finalized, approved, implemented and listed on the ATA website by the start of the 2019 target year.

Garry

 

Tell you what Gary, here is my 2 cents worth on ATA trapshooting. I suspect you and a few others may disagree.
All of the controversy over easy targets, more yards to max handicap distance, diminishing attendance, entrenched bureaucracy of the ATA with its old locked in ways and lots more that is wrong with the ATA and trapshooting would all go away or get dramatically better if the sport would just start using wobble settings on all traps all the time. (It wouldn't hurt to throw the targets a couple of yards further either.)

 

Note: Total accountability and total transparency also means that whenever a change request has been submitted and during the process it is voted down by those who have voting authority, the names of the individuals voting No must be included in the status of the change request.

 

Nice going guys keepem coming. I like all of them so far, wobble is great, Keeps you on your toes, agree?


GB...........................DLS

 

Just making the whole sport wobble would "Make trapshooting great again."
Course, it is highly unlikely to happen with the entrenched bureaucracy of the ATA. But as the ATA dies (and it is dying and will die real fast when this very old demographic of shooters moves on to their last reward) maybe some other organization like the PITA or something will start using wobble traps for events.
Alas, I won't be there to see it.
Maybe my boy will be. (And, that kid can shoot some wobble.)

 

Wobble is a pipe dream. The cost to replace or refit the existing machines would be verrrrrrrrrrry expensive.What we need is toget rid of the existing EC and get the BOD to do its job and tell the new EC you will listen to what the members want. BUT, That is also a pipe dream. We will just have to watch as the ATA implodes, from the lack of good leadership. Roger C.

 

The way to get ATA rules changed is clear. You have to get a majority of the members of the Board of Directors to vote to do it. I did it countless times. I failed to get that majority often enough as well. It's just what you have to do. If you can't do that, you can't get rules changed in the directions you want.

What are you going to do now? In all likelihood, you will do nothing at all. That's what you all have done so far. But it's not because you don't know how; I just told you how. You won't do it because you are so much lazier than I was, or lack the single-minded commitment I had, or think things should be served up to you on a plate because you can type your desires on this website.

N1H1

 

WHAT?, NO GRAPH?

 

Jakeroo obviously never looked inside a traphouse in his entire shooting career. No, there is not a squirrel dutifully placing targets on the machine for our enjoyment. Actually, at least 95% of existing trap machines are not equipped to throw wobble targets. That said, I'm sure Jakeroo would be glad to reduce his vast fortunes by offering to convert the many barely existing ATA affiliated clubs' traps to wobble.

Since our local club offers a Tuesday night wobble league and it's attended by a mere 7 shooters while the Thursday night trap league has 125 members I'd say shooters are not as fascinated with wobble trap as Jakeroo. Therefore Jakeroo is talking silly at best, likely carried a low 80's average in trap and feels a need to change the game to where he feels competitive. Try again Jakeroo!

 

Neil -
Your lifetime award and the pursuit therein ruined the organization beyond recovery. Remember it is you that received the award for being instrumental in taking the sport out of registered shooting. ATA is not the sport. It is the org you ruined. Trapshooting is doing OK. Registered sucks. It sucks by design. It is your design.

Tell us how proud you are of your accomplishment. It would mean much to many. Please Neil tell us how proud you are.

It is not Gary's job to undo what you did.

Again, tell us how proud you are Neil.

And be sure to sign your name - "yours without sport"

 

Neil, I disagree with your quote above. How can it be clear if there isn't an official process documenting the required steps to be followed that's listed on the ATA website or the ATA rulebook?

The word of mouth process currently in effect is flawed. Why should members have to convince their state delegate of any changes they would like to see in the ATA rules and policies? A state delegate should not have the authority or power to decide whether the requested change has merit or not! At best, a state delegate could be the collection box for the requested changes submitted by the members he or she represents. But why not make it simple and setup a change request process that allows any member in good standing to enter the change request on-line to the ATA as step number one in the process?

Any organization whose management team does not provide for total accountability and total transparency is creating the breeding grounds for miss-trust and discontent.

What harm would there be in developing an official change request process that provides for total accountability, total transparency and monthly updates on the status of each requested change as it progresses through each step of the process? I believe that if such process existed, it would go a long way in restoring the trust between the members and ATA management team.

 

Neil Winston is the biggest Ass I ever met in 45 years of trap shooting, and his post above should prove that to all. Brad Dysinger

 

And yet another BULLSHIT post by "ol'N1H1" ..... A "not for profit organization" using the GARBAGE of "TO PROMOTE THE SPORT OF TRAPSHOOTING" to keep their private "Hedge Fund" from paying "taxes" ..... so a select few can help fund their "Trapshooting" .....

How about "they" take it upon themselves to "improve the Sport" ????? That is what their "positions" require them to do ..... RIGHT ????????? Have you ever understood the definition of "fiduciary" ??????

Someone is getting paid a couple of hundred grand a year to do what I am doing for FREE ..... Promoting the "FANTASTIC DIRECTION" of killing the "ATA" ..... so PLEASE do not include me in the "do nothing" ..... I have worked very hard to put the final nail in the "coffin" of the "ATA", in hopes that will rid "Trapshooting" of the self-serving leeches doing so much harm to the "Sport" .....

Keep up the good work "ol'N1H1" ..... each time you post the same regurgitated BULLSHIT it helps with that final nail ..... THANKS for the help .....

 

The word arrogance comes to mind every time this self righteous "real trapshooter" says anything. The sad thing is, this guy REALLY believes his own BS.

 

Roger, I respectfully disagree. I do agree that the entrenched EC and BOD are not transparent and do not "listen to what the members want." But at the next ATA trap shoot you attend honestly look at the shooters and try to estimate the average age. Sixty? Sixty five? And look at that group of ATA shooters and see how many young people are shooting. Even "young" people under 50 or 40. Damn few.
So just listening to what the "shooters" (the very old shooters) want is not going to save the game.
The game needs new blood. And, the new blood is out there.
Go to a big sporting clays event. See any difference? Lots of folks in their 30s, 40s, 50s. And quite a few in their 20s and even teens.
Go to a rifle range and see how many young shooters have taken up shooting AR-15s and similar guns. Lots and lots. And those AR-15s cost about 30 cents a shot to shoot, and shoot, and shoot at paper and other boring targets.
We need to tap into that group an it is not by just having old ATA shooters recycle old ideas.
And, as for the expense of putting wobble bases on machines. I don't know the exact costs but those machines are not going to be worth much as we close down trap club after trap club. Ya can't hardly give them away.

 

Oh, and since I have taken Gary's bait on this, I think the sport should go to 1 oz. loads. They break the crap out of targets and recoil significantly less.
Might not need 9 to 11 pound guns and a dozen different recoil reducing (spreading) type stocks and devices on the market.

 

Dawg, No reason to insult me because you disagree.
I started ATA trapshooting when I was 14 and I am now 66. I have not only "seen the inside of a trap house" I was a trapper and a puller for several years in my teens, was President for 4 years of one of the biggest and best trap and skeet clubs in So. Cal. and went through the whole conversion to 2 hole targets and the PAT trap era and etc.
I have "seen the inside" of plenty of trap houses.
And, I am an AA27AA shooter and though I have not shot a registered ATA event in a few years, I never carried "a low 80s average."
Any time you want to shoot let me know. I do prefer hard targets. You have that right.
Sorry we disagree.
But you can be a proponent to just keep throwing those boring targets. Keep requiring 200 straights to get into the shoot off at virtually all big events. Just keep doing what we are doing. And listen to a bunch of old men complain that there is no money in the game any more cause of the way the options are set up and other same ol', same ol' complaints about how it ain't like the "old days."
And sit back and watch the sport shrivel up and die.

 

Jake, You remind me of my toaster. Only some times it makes more sense than you do. Roger C.

 

Sorry Jakeroo, although I agree with many of your observations, wobble trap will never be accepted by the masses. You may recall it was abandoned many years ago at the GA likely for lack of interest. The average low 90's trapshooter has a difficult enough time breaking what's thrown now and has shown little interest in making targets more challenging. We all know how little interest bunker trap has and how few shooters show up for a shoot.

That said, why not get prices on how much it costs to retrofit all existing ATA trap machines into wobble machines and prove it will be cost effective. You probably already know most traphouses are ill suited for wobble as they tend to be too high and the presentations suck. Maybe you should also include how much it will cost to lower those houses into the ground making the targets much fairer.

Since I haven't broken a 200 straight in awhile but still maintain at least a AA average I haven't been in one of those endless shootoffs for a long time. Neither has 99% of any of today's trapshooters. Think again!

 

Want a more difficult game? Just use the existing traps and gradually increase the angles. We sometimes offer a 2-3-4-5 hole shoots here in PA. No additional expense and lots of fun. Wasn't that easy?

 

I get it. Lots of fun, eh? You kind of make my point. And it is hard to deny the tedium involved in shooting at 200 ATA singles targets.
I haven't shot ATA in a while. (Though I am pretty seriously considering shooting in our state shoot in June.) But even when I was carrying a 98+ average in singles, I found it a slog with little joy.
You are right about the equipment for many clubs. I get that. Many trap houses are too shallow.
But the whole tired argument about shooting the same boring 2 hole targets cause that is where the shooters go is circular.
I understand how the easier "2 hole" standard evolved.
It is that genesis that Neil always discusses as the reason for the change. The ATA was following the shooters and the money. I understand what happened and understand why Neil gets frustrated when people say he mandated the easier targets so he could get his average up. He was trying to get overall numbers up. I was in the trenches then running Miramar.
I have posted before how our ATA numbers at Miramar were on a downward slope while just up the road at Redlands their numbers were climbing. We threw targets at the legal max distance (52 yards as I recall) and the wider angles. Redlands were throwing them 48 and the minimum angles. Trap shooters kept telling us how much they liked the Redlands targets. (Same soft targets were being thrown in Vegas with its big following.)
I gave in.
I personally went out and moved the stakes to 48 yards and ordered the angles to be reduced. And 48 v. 52 yards is significant. 12 feet of difference in not that much distance.
Our numbers climbed.
That happened all over the US. That is why the ATA decided to mandate the "2 hole" standard. That is Neil's point.
But the ATA could have gone the other way. They could have ordered more difficult targets and made soft ones illegal. Do you think the hardcore shooters would have quit? Do you think the best shooters would have all of a sudden been unable to compete?
Like it or not, ATA targets are not very challenging. And having to "break em all" to be a player ain't all that fun. That is at least one reason why non-registered trap gets more play many/most places than registered.
But all this discussion is just that. Blah, blah, blah.
It sure does not look like anything is going to change.
Jake

 

Roger, I appreciate humor and simile/analogy.
But I don't get the reference of reminding you of a toaster.
But, thank you for the thoughts.
Jake

 

Jake, I was referring to your suggestion of changing the registered target to a wobble venue. the sport would be gone in a very short time if that change was made. If shooters would mandate that the ATA revert to the targets that we shot in the 80's and early 90's, and quite trying to completely change the game of trap shooting maybe we could get some thing changed. Wobble will never make it. I liked shooting the modified international that THE ATA THREW AT MANY STATE SHOOTS AND THE GRAND MANY YEARS AGO. but it never made it as a serious event.
As far as Neil and his minions go, they must be very proud of the mess they made out of the registered venue. It is on a down hill slide and seems to be picking up speed every year. They let the CHEATERS OVER RULE THE DIRECTORS OF OUR ORGANIZATION, HOW CAN WE RESPECT THEIR LACK OF DUTY OF NOT ENFORCING THE EXISTING RULES THAT WERE IN PLACE FOR MANY YEARS. Their lack of foresight was incredibly lacking. I'm glad that I was a part of the old ATA, and not the feel good agenda that is now in place. ROGER C.
PS I forgot one of the cheaters was on the BOD at the time the cheating started and was a PARTISIPANT.

 

1. Mandatory reductions. This will immediately fix many of the problems in handicap and help bring some of the money back into the game, reduce the dominance of the top pros, and give the average shooter more of a chance to win. I feel this would increase interest in the sport, though most shooters will agree to this kicking and screaming because they won’t be shooting from yardages they somehow earned but can’t compete from.

2. Subgauge 16 yard events (20g and/or 28g). It would be fun and challenging for those who choose to try these optional events. It would appease the ‘make the game harder crowd.’ Sure it would require us all to get more guns, barrels, and ammo but it is extremely popular in sporting so why not give it a try?

 

Personally I'm not a fan of Mandatory reductions .
I went from the 22 to the 20 which was OK. Then to the 18 which caused squadding problems.
One or 2 man squads didn't get it for me.
I emailed Cathy Key and requested my old yardage back. Got to the 20 again.
Sub-gauge events would be good to try.

Regards....Gerald

 

ATTN: Pat Traps, what would it cost to make the PAT TRAPS go to wobble, How reasonable can you make that Happen, Please Give us an Estimate!!!

Gary Bryant.................................. Dr.longshot

 

Lowering the cost of something people do not want, does not make it anymore desirable.

 

Doc, You are back to kicking that dead horse again. WOBBLE is not in the cards. We can not get shooters to demand wider angles, and you think wobble is the answer. Is pot legal in OHIO? Give up smoking. Roger C.

 

Y'all are looking at what "Didn't work" years ago and assuming it won't work today. That seems to be faulty reasoning to me.

 

John, I would like to see a 28G. event. How many blue collar shooters do you think could afford to equip up for the event? It makes about as much sense as changing the sport to wobble. Have you priced the 28G. ammo lately? Roger C.

 

No offense at all intended but I feel you are proving my point. You weren't competitive from the 22, nor the 20. You decided you didn't want to shoot from the ATA so asked for (and received) a yardage *increase* you didn't earn. This is exactly why the handicap event is broken. 90%+ of all shooters are shooting from yardages where they are not good enough to compete, myself included. If reductions were mandatory folks would be shooting from more competitive yardages and have a much better chance to win, place, or show. Many, many, more people would play the money. Also, if reductions were mandatory there would be many more short yardage shooters and squadding wouldn't be an issue. In fact, it would probably be hard to put together full squads of 27 yard shooters.

I'd love to tee off in the U.S. Open but I'm not good enough.

 

It would be an added expense for sure. I'm sure many would not be able to afford it but many others would. That's why I suggested you make it optional like in sporting clays. I've seen SC tournaments have to turn away entries the subgauge events are so popular. Kolar and Krieghoff can't make the subgauge barrels fast enough to keep up with demand...someone is buying them. Why not trapshooters?

 

John, I do not think it would add to the attendance of the small club trap shoots. The average blue collar shooter can not afford the added expense of the small bore addition. Would it mean singles, doubles, handicap events in small bore in addition to the present programs?
It does not seem possible to get the ATA to go back to the target presentation that made the sport popular. But some of you think adding small bore, and wobble will entice them to make the changes. You and Doc. better change brands. Your choice of pot is to powerful for you to keep smoking. Roger C.

PS This game is turning back into a rich mans sport, it was at one time and looks like it will be again. Our loss no bodies gained.

 

Trap shooting and trap shooters need clubs that will host games, be it from the 30 yard line or beyond but the shooters can pick their flavor ... Sooner or later they will draw crowds while keeping fun in the game and put targets in the air while eliminating the pressures of having to shoot perfect scores ... Maywood Sportman Club in Elmhurst, Ill used to have people lined up on Weds nights and eventually on Sundays to shoot games and they gave the shooters exactly what they wanted and you never heard anyone complain about the targets being to short, long, wide etc, you stood there and waited your turn, if you got shot out you waited until the next game and got right back at the line ... Registered trapshooting has fallen by the way side based on attendance starting at the biggest little shoot in the USA known as the grand ... If not for all of the clubs collecting fees for the ATA it would be on life support, would help it if they eliminated most of the EC, the ED and those on the BOD who use it as a Cash Cow ... Let the Games begin .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger you got the wrong Gary, that was Garry, I AIN't kicking no horses. Wobble may be nice, I like em.

GB.........................DLSD

 

This Garry has never said anything about wobble traps.

 

Doc, Why the post as to how much it would cost to convert Pat traps to wobble? It looked like an endorsment of the idea. Roger C.

 

Here is a kind of grass roots movement idea. I wish I could test this locally but I have no local venue. This may have been tried somewhere in some fashion with success or not.

Many clubs in my state are members only with a waiting list. Now when they hold an ATA event; any ATA member gets in the gate in keeping with being allowed to hold a registered shoot. Some of those clubs might not like to participate. However, I see no reason the member and non-member welcome clubs who also hold registered trap shoots could not join the movement.

Select a date. Leave a poster or handouts where sporting goods are sold. Buy a newspaper ad. Mention free hot dogs. Make arrangements for loaner equipment for the non-hunter who will have none. Disposeable plugs and throw away glasses are a must.

I know a fellow who came over from bowling. He is competition oriented. He has been ATA for 35 years I know about.

Another was invited out to a trap and skeet club during first job after college. He is a big guy. He is a former ball player. He likes competition sports. He picked trap. He did not see any sense in shooting the same game with four gauges. He joined the ATA. He later partnered up with some others and built a trap only club. We need more of that.

After these guests shoot a show and tell practice round; inquire as to their competive spirit. If they liked what they did in the demonstration with mentoring and want to compete; they will be gun shopping as funds allow.

 

It was mentioned in a previous thread, thought I would check, it is way too expensive, and they could not make the angles.

GB...............................DLS

 

New All American Requirements:
500 Targets below 32 degrees
500 Targets in pouring rain
500 Targets above 95 degrees & 90 percent humidity
500 Targets in winds greater than 35 mph

 

Lots of good ones were shared on the other site, only to be shouted down by a bitter, old, terrified group of losers who have custom tailored a sporting activity that is just hard enough to make them feel good about themselves.

I suspect many people have simply given up and moved on to other pursuits.

 

The other site, is now like being in JHS, with a bunch of hall monitors--up your butt for any infraction--its good to be "banned"