The Cardinal Classic, 2019, some numbers to go with Family Guy’s pictures

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by Flyersarebest, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    If my "Made in Jamaica" Walmart calculator is working correctly these are the numbers since Wednesday. No wonder FG has to take so many pictures.

    Curtains anyone?


    2018...……………………………….2019
    Wed
    Event # 4.....499...………………….542 + 43
    Event # 5.....548...…...……………..550
    + 2
    Event # 6.....378...…............………372 - 6

    Thurs
    Event # 7.....591..............................727 + 136
    Event # 8.....450.....................……..695 + 245
    Event # 9.....485.....................……..661 + 176

    Fri
    Event # 10.....756.....................…...819 + 63
    Event # 11.....692.....................…...837 + 145
    Event # 12.....433.....................…...547 + 114
     
  2. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    A really clever guy could probably see a trend there, oui? :)
     
  3. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Ya Mon, they be comin

    Or, from the people North of the border that speak English instead of French,
    Lots of people there, eh?

    I hope the trend, she continues for the weekend Mon
     
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  4. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    You be smokin', Mon. No sweat, weekend soon come. Big pawdy be comin', you'll see.:cool: Jamaican come too?
     
  5. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    No Mon, he can't be makin it to da shoot.

    Somting bout jerkin his chicken whad ever that be meanin
     
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  6. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Ah, Mon, maybe he be loping his mule.
     
  7. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    Looks like Mr. Fishburn and company need to look NO FURTHER !
     
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  8. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Those pitiful numbers cannot sustain the CC. Remember that the Cardinals Classic was set up to "catch the wave" from the Grand. Looks like you got a small wave LOL. Jack will be back at Sparta for more bailout but he will be sent packing again!

    But, I mon neva been a Jamaica, ire
     
  9. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    There are people at the Cardinal Center who would of one time been to the grand, that is a no brainer … Cardinal Center is the home of the new and improved grand for those who will not go to Sparta, Ill … WPT … (YAC) …
     
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  10. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    How about Canada?

    OK mike, it's time to give up. The only thing pitiful is your above post. You have gone from frustration to now despairation. Even I didn't think the turnout was going to be this fantastic. I can only imagine how you felt when you saw those numbers.

    Oh man, am I going to look like a booger eating moron. That guy Flyersarebest is going to have a great time with this. It isn't bad enough that he makes me look like an idiot every time I go on that site but now? I'm so screwed. What did they draw that one day? Like two hundred and forty five MORE shooters? How in the world is this happening?

    What to do, what to do? I know, I'll say something so friggin nuts that it will make them talk about that instead of the super fantastic numbers. Yeah, that's it. Something about that lame shoot in that place the week before. Yeah, I'll say that the only reason the numbers are that huge is because all the people going back home stopped there. Damn, there weren't that many people. Ok, I'll tell them that Mr. Fishburn will go back to that place looking for a bailout. Geeeez, even I know that's sounds like I'm an idiot but that's all I got.

    Well here goes. I hope that Flyersarebest guy takes it easy on me. I don't know about him getting the best of those flyers but he sure as hell gets the best of me.

    Well mike j., I'm going to give you a break today. Why don't you check with the two people you respect on this site and see if they think your idea is correct, or, your just pissed off that I'm right. AGAIN!
     
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  11. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Dude, I would like to see trapshooting succeed everywhere. I am not a CC basher even though I will not shoot there once you people continue to boycott the Grand. I would actually like for Mr. Fishburn to succeed. What will happen to OH trapshooting if not for him.
     
  12. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    As long as they continue to hold what was once the "grand" in that place it won't succeed EVERYWHERE

    No wonder they asked MR Fishburn for help.

    Try again
     
  13. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Mike J.
    You might think otherwise but trapshooting is doing quite well in Ohio, the Cardinal Center is successful and will continue to prosper with or with out the ATA ... The grand or what was once the grand is not the ATA and would not make or break the Cardinal Center based on the reputation they have built over the years they have been in operation by both parties ... The only thing that Cardinal Center could and probably would do is increase the attendance if the grand was to be shifted over to the Cardinal Center , if for no other reason all of the amenities are right there, in place for their choosing ...
    The WSRC (State of Illinois) anticipated the area in and around Sparta being built up to provide for the number of shooters they anticipated would be attending the grand and it never happened ... The Vendors and the amenities in the general and local area are what attract the big numbers, not the ATA it self, though to many of the Top Guns, its a big payoff and big pay day for them usually ... That big pay off or big pay day has also been effected by the lesser number of shooters in attendance ... The WSRC is a fine facility but without the needed amenities that does not matter and that will not change or increase any shooters desired to show up there ... You are blowing a lot of smoke and talk like a man with a Paper asshole, get educated and then tell all about it ... Many, Most of us have been there when it truly was the Grand and it ain't no more except in name ... That name by the way has been so Whored out it ridiculous ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  14. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Funny thing is the only people complaining about the Grand are the boycotters. Everyone at the Grand that I talked to thought it was the greatest thing on earth. I don't want the Grand to be bigger. Waiting to shoot 4 hours between events in more than enough for me. The Grand made $600,000 PROFIT... just one shoot. $19 million in the bank doesn't sound like an unsuccessful organization.
     
  15. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    taqiyah
     
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  16. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Funny thing is the only people complaining about the Grand are the boycotters"

    The 2000+ that used to shoot the Grand before the move don't complain. They showed the ata what they thought of that White elephant by not giving them any money. They very quietly didn't show up. They actually just wrote that shoot off their calendars. No big deal. The place sucks and there isn't anything to really miss.

    If you did a little research instead of just mimicking the other Kool-Aid drinkers you will see that, no, I'm not going to help you. Do something for yourself instead of repeating the same silly crap and look up the number of shooters from each state that went there and tell us which state was Third in attendance. You're not going to like it but, unlike your 600K figure, it is a fact.

    "Everyone at the Grand that I talked to thought it was the greatest thing on earth."

    You weren't at the GRAND. You were at shoot, shooting lousy scores ( you said so yourself) PRETENDING to be at the GRAND. That title ceased to exist in 2006. I don't doubt for one second that "EVERYONE" you talked to said they thought it was the greatest thing on earth. Lemmings agree with each other right up until they are over the edge.

    "I don't want the Grand to be bigger"

    LOL, You don't have to worry about that ever happening. As long as they keep it where it is it will NEVER get to where it used to be. I know, fine with you, SO WHAT?

    The Grand made $600,000 PROFIT... just one shoot.

    Since you have been wrong on everything else I think I'll wait on the OFFICIAL (hope they don't bullshit us again) report.
    Not calling you a liar mike j. I know you wrote that number because you believe it. That's the sad part, you believe anything the ata ringmasters tell you.

    $19 million in the bank doesn't sound like an unsuccessful organization.

    If that is how YOU count success. Apparently more than half the past membership doesn't agree with you. THEY QUIT.
    I don't mean quit going to that outpost in ILLnews. I mean QUIT altogether.

    Since money seems to be what you are all about ( "I spent $4,000 and it was worth every penny") and
    ("I spent over $15K per year shooting trap. It's a drop in the bucket for me")
    just think how much money the ata could have made if all those shooters closer to that place would have showed up. You know, the ones the ata LIED about when they said it didn't matter that they were moving. They have a history of "not telling the truth" so like I said, I'll wait on the financial report. Even then it's believe nothing you hear and half what you see.

    If that 15K "drop in the bucket" line was supposed to impress or intimidate me you have to do better. You're a PIKER. Look that one up.
    My wife and I have won and lost that much in 3 weekend trips to the casinos. That $4K you spent? Seed money for one 3 day weekend.

    Ain't that about a bitch mikej.? I can outshoot you, have more money than you, and am smarter than you.
    Hey, what do ya know, a Trifecta.

    Of course I don't have the patent on being smarter than you. There are about 2000+ shooters that don't go to that outpost that can say the same thing.

    Go ahead. Ignore everything I just posted and tell us again about the 600K. Might as well, you can't say anything else LOL
     
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  17. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    mike j. You want to see some pictures of the hand pay slot hits? Pretty cool really. Even a "high roller" like you would be impressed. LOL
     
  18. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Not sure the ATA would have the total numbers that soon after the shoot but anything is possible ... The Girls in the ATA office are very efficient if they are given the Data ... The 19 Million dollars has been accumulated over the course of years, most of them prior to the re location to Sparta, Ill ... (Some how Mike J cannot get that through his thick skull) .
    If the ATA had re located to another destination and had larger attendance records over the past 14 years they would probably of made even more money than 19 Million Mike J. likes to talk about ... Talking to Mike J. and trying to make a point is like talking to the toaster, he is closed minded and has no idea what he is talking about ... He has probably never attended the Grand when it was ... If we ignore him maybe he will just go away ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  19. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "If we ignore him maybe he will just go away" ...

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I don't want that. He is way too much fun.

    I only have a high school diploma but next to him I look like a genius. Now granted I have forgotten where I put the car key once or twice and have done the same with my glasses but never forgot where I left my shooting cart. LOL
     
  20. chris henry

    chris henry Active Member

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    I for 1 Appreciate The CC. If I Need Factory Service For My K-Guns I Don't Have To Drive 10 hrs to Sparta. Only A 4.5 hr Drive For me To Get To CC. Much More Convenient And I Will Continue to Support The CC. No Need Whatsoever to Go to Sparta.
     
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  21. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    No wonder you cannot afford to shoot trap. The casino took my money!! LOL :p
     
  22. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Actually we are up some. Well not really just some. Quite a bit really.

    I told you, that 15K you are so proud of? That's less than 1/3 what we WON last year. The first 3 months of this this year we had already WON more than your whole year's budget. Yeah, I can't afford to shoot "trap".

    Who is telling you to say things like that? You can't be that dumb to think I would say that without being able to back it up. Somebody, sid:confused:ney maybe, or one of the stooges? You could call yourselves three Amigos. Like the name on this machine. It was only $3,623 but it WAS the second hand pay of the day so it was OK.


    IMG_2384.JPG

    You spent 15K, $4000.00 of that in that outpost, and don't have crap to show for it. Ahhh, the memories of the Walmart in sparta. What a dream. To spend that much KNOWING you can't win or get any better is just stupid.

    Find another "hobby". Fishing sounds like it would be a good "sport" for you.

    You must have missed this question eh?
    mike j. You want to see some pictures of the hand pay slot hits?

    Better yet, you want to make a little wager? Or just wimper and hide. This is your chance to make a little money back from that $4000 dump you took.

    I'll bet you, ah heck, whatever amount you want as long as it isn't something small like $100, that I can show you over $53,000.00 in hand pay slips for last year and around $20,000.00 for the first quarter this year.

    Your chance to run with the big dogs mike j. Make a bet, feel like a playa! You get to run back to whoever is pulling your strings and brag that you won the bet. Think of what a hero you would look like. The guy that made a Forum Leader on the "dark side" lose.

    This offer will be for as long as you live by the way. OVER 50K in 2018 and over 20K the first quarter of 2019.

    Let me know the minute you grow a pair.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  23. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Maybe I should start a category about Casino wins. People could post pictures of their pay outs.

    mike j. could start a category showing pictures of low scores. The "registered" shooter with the lowest score could win a prize. Maybe a box of cheap shells or that $1.00 extra fee they will have to pay the next time they go to that place. IF it is still there next year.

    And mikej. don't forget to do what I told you in the earlier post.

    Do something for yourself instead of repeating the same silly crap and look up the number of shooters from each state that went there and tell us which state was Third in attendance.

    And while you are at it look up the numbers for todays sixteens. I figure it will UP like the previous 6 events.
     
  24. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Muslims practice taqyia. They believe that it is OK to lie to infidels.
     
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  25. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Yep, you are one of the only ones that beat the Casino :D I don't want to see payout slip I want to see your tax forms for claims for your losses :D
     
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  26. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    I told you you need to graduate from the Village Idiot thing :D
     
  27. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    To save a lot of time you DO know how a win/loss statement works right? If you don't either find out first or tell me so I can explain it to you. When people see the numbers they think I'm some kind of millionaire and I have to explain. I'll put up my tax return but it won't be for free.
    You said I couldn't afford to shoot trap. The amount of money I gamble with will make that statement look stupid.
    How much is the bet?
    Remember, nothing in life is free.
     

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  28. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    The ATA making $600,000 in one shoot, do you mean the whole Grand all 2 weeks of it?

    To me this MIGHT be Logical, Maybe, just maybe logical.

    GB...............................DLS
     
  29. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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  30. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER State HOF Staff Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I was looking at the numbers from the shoot and one that stuck out is the winner of class AAA doubles on the 200 bird event. I hope it is a typo but if not it is the best example I've seen for no triple a class. It says 125, there has to be a reason, but it says it was the winning score.

    Triple a classes are jokes.
     
  31. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Typo? Maybe 195?

    Looked him up and he has a bunch of 98's -99's throughout the year. I think there is a 100 in there too
     
  32. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Yes Doc,

    The ATA reported a net profit of over $673,000 in 2018 on their IRS Form 990 and Annual Financial Statement. GAH revenue is over $2.6 million.

    I wonder why Delegates haven't asked why the ATA has to make so much on an 11-day shoot? Or what are the ATA's plans for all that money they have accumulated? If the ATA plans to stay in Sparta as reported by now Past President Dean, why do they need all that money? Are there any Delegates awake out there that might provide an answer?


    The ATA's net profit is over $61,000 each day. Perhaps they could charge shooters a little less to maybe increase participation.

    Maybe they could be happy with a daily profit of $10,000 a day; that's $110,000 profit in just 11 days.

    HB

    2018 GAH Revenue-Form 990.jpg
    2018&2017 GAH Revenue-Financial Report.jpg
     
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  33. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    HB is a true resource for this site!! Not sure why the ATA needs to accumulate that much money but it can be for contingency in case they have to take over the O&M of the facility or buy it for god sakes. That why I am not worried about them spending money on the guaranteed purses. But I do think the big question is what can the ATA do to use some money to increase participation throughout the country.
     
  34. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    What could the ATA do to make "Sparta" show a profit, that is not being done now ???????

    The "O&M" of the place now is just a money-pit, that produces nothing but millions in red ink .....

    Don't you think Illinois is going to be pissed if the ATA knows how to turn the place around, and refuses to do so until they "buy it" ?????

    How much do you think it would take to get a "clear title" to that place ????? There were "bonds" sold and other debts made to build the place ..... So, is Illinois all caught up from when they stopped paying their debts ?????

    Buying a money-pit in a gun hate State would no doubt fit the current "fantastic direction" .....
     
  35. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    The ATA shoots at Sparta and the facility in general generate a lot of revenues for the community. More than half of what I spent was non-shooting related. After 14 years, the facilities at Sparta are now sunk costs. With the roads repaired not sure what money pit you are talking about. It would be nice if you people could go see for yourself rather than every year announcing the death, wake, funeral and burial of the ATA. I'll be here for the 15 annual celebration of the death of the ATA next year.
     
  36. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "The ATA shoots at Sparta and the facility in general generate a lot of revenues for the community." ..... damn the Kool-Aid ..... How would you like to be part of the "community" that eats the millions in red ink tax dollars, so the "ATA" can brag about a "net profit of 600k" ?????? You think you would be pissed ?????

    "With the roads repaired not sure what money pit you are talking about." ..... You seem to trust HB's info ..... ask him to re-post the information showing the loss by the "Complex" to the Illinois tax-payers .....

    I hope EVERYONE keeps posting about the "ATA's net profit of 600k", so sooner or later it gets picked up and read by those paying the bill for it to happen .....

    So , don't slow down now , keep up the good work of telling how well the ATA is doing, while others pay for it to happen ......

    Kool-Aid seems to be a dangerous thing, when fed to sheeple .....
     
  37. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Well I ACTUALLY spoke to many many many CONSERVATIVE shooters from Illinois and they don't seem to have a problem, why should you?? Everyone in Sparta is happy to see us shooters, there are many welcoming signs around. The problem is YOU people are creating a problem which hurts no one but YOU. Illinois shooters feel that YOU guys are unfairly blaming them by boycotting the Grand so they return the favor for your shoots. Note only 5 from Illinois showed up for the Cardinal Classic and 3 of them cleaned your clocks. I couldn't tell from outdated RJ database who the other 2 were. Maybe they were chasing All American points also. Go ahead and boycott Sparta we will see who it hurts. By the way, I am not saying that irregularities did not happen in the past but sue the ATA if you have the evidence or let's move on.
     
  38. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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  39. Diesel43

    Diesel43 Member

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    I thought that was some sort of typo at first too. I believe all of the prelim singles/doubles events had no champion. Best I can figure is that only 2 AAA shooters shot the 200 doubles event. Vendel won sub vet and category takes priority over class. Leaving the only other AAA classed doubles shooter the win in class.
     
  40. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Mike J,

    I don't know what that secret liquid is that you're rubbing on that "crank bait" but you should patent it because you seem to be reeling 'em in on every cast. I think you know a bit more than you let on. And, you certainly know that the ATA does not have "$19 million in the bank." They do have $19 million in assets, but a few million less in available funds.

    Folks who think the ATA should be in a position to purchase the WSRC really need to do some due diligence before supporting the idea.

    First, it will take a person or group with deep pockets, a lot of energy and a huge imagination to make the Sparta Complex profitable.

    The ATA currently doesn't possess any of these necessary factors. Although they did take a big chance by taking over the camping leases during the GAH, it had paid off pretty well in recent years. But again, they add to the problem of the "expense of trapshooting for its members who participate at the tournament when they net $107,277 for 15 days or $7,151.80 per day on camping (and the IDNR pays for the electric, water & sewer). They could make it a lot easier for those who wish to attend the GAH tournament but they don't. Participants just keep paying and Delegates just keep looking off into the wild blue yonder, uncaring and/or unaware of their duties to the organization.

    The expense for electric, water & sewer in 2018 was almost $499k. The month of August brought invoices to the tune of more than $120k.


    If there is no master plan, the ATA should reduce the cost of attending registered shooting.

    If there is a master plan for the future . . . . would one of you Delegates please inform readers just what the ATA intends to do with all their money?

    Additionally, every few years, the IDNR touts big plans to increase visitation to the WSRC, but never follows through. (High hopes and Low energy)

    Here's an article from 2015. Hoping for a new life is not enough. They need someone who is willing to work hard to develop attractions.

    WSRC Hopes For New Life.01.jpg
    WSRC Hopes For New Life.02.jpg
    WSRC Hopes For New Life.03.jpg
    WSRC Hopes For New Life.04.jpg

    Thanks,

    HB
     
  41. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    So the ATA has approximately 30,000(and falling) active members and the SASS(Single Action Shooting Society) has approximately 90,000(and rising) active members. HB, does that say anything about the future of trapshooting?
     
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  42. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Add to that this cheery little statistic:

    In 2014, Illinois was 127 billion dollars in debt.
    In 2018, Illinois was 216 billion dollars in debt.

    Against that, the ATA really isn't worth a cup of warm piss.
     
  43. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Villiage IDIOT are you the second Daytona suspect the FBI is looking for. You seem to be such a clown so I might have to send them a tip. Anyone with 1/2 oz brain would know I don't care about protecting my identity. At least 50 people at the Grand know who I am because of the cart incident, some from Ohio. Seems like you got a tip, but a bad one.

    I don't mind sending anyone who post here with their real name my true name if they would like to know. I have nothing to hide and I fear no one.
     
  44. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    True. Here is a statement to the effect in the March 2019 report:
    President Dean requested that Controller Howell by teleconference give the Financial
    Report. He stated that during the first quarter of this year the total assets of the ATA decreased
    from $18,539,051 in 2017 to $18,242,536 in 2018 as shown on the December 31, 2018 Balance
    Sheet. Total liabilities increased from $1,571,275 in 2017 to $1,596,699 in 2018 during the first
    quarter of the year. The decrease in the assets of the ATA was due to a drop in the stock
    market at the end of December, and the resulting effect that it had on the ATA’s investments.

    However, the fact is the ATA is awash in money. Any attempt to portray here that the ATA is bankrupt is laughable. I am surprised that Brad fell for that bull$hit. From what I heard the complex is doing well with other non-ATA activities but they would like to increase trapshooting activities to make better use of the facilities.

    You said:
    Folks who think the ATA should be in a position to purchase the WSRC really need to do some due diligence before supporting the idea.

    First, it will take a person or group with deep pockets, a lot of energy and a huge imagination to make the Sparta Complex profitable.

    If you should visit the complex you will get an idea of the deep pockets of ATA shooters. If the ATA is in financial need and there is no corruption involved, I and many other would not mind donating thousands of dollars each. I agree the ATA will have to expand its reached beyond trapshooting to make the Sparta Complex profitable but it is something that can be done if VERY necessary. Having the state run the facility is actually a blessing for the ATA because the State can afford to get it returns over a very long period. The immediate impact of the shoot on local businesses is a major reason why the state will continue to support the complex.

    One thing said here that I agree with...Sadly, trapshooting at the Grand might not be for blue collar workers who have to travel hundred of miles, but blue collar locals have been supporting the Grand tremendously...I spend a lot of time talking to local shooter so I have a good feel for the situation.

    Bottom line is the Grand will be at Sparta until everyone here is dead!
     
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  45. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "I have nothing to hide and I fear no one."

    I just got home from the Lady Luck casino at Nemacolin so I missed that one. LOL
     
  46. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike J, Are you telling us that our end is near? You are like a thanksgiving turkey, full of shit. Much of the ATA assets came from the sale of property in Vandalia, Not from their astute business practices.
    The grounds are very nice, but maintenance on them is very high. If they were privately owned the taxes would most likely eat up the $600,000.00 profit from the grand. Allso being in podunk town is not an asset to the grounds. I have shot every Grand but this years there. I dropped about $5000.00 every year. The thrill is gone from the event, sad but true. The EC has driven a spike between the association and the members that is going to be very hard to change, their attitude toward us is we are the smartest men in the room and any ideas of your are a mute point to us. We are to just keep supporting their poor business moves and we will be informed on a need to know basis what they want us know.
    Mike, I do not know if you have noticed most trap shooters are not in the lemming class. If they were they would not be able to do the sport, that is why many do not agree with the way the association is and has been running for the last 20 yrs. It is on a down hill slide and picking up speed every year, with no one at the helm with a business plan to save the registered trap shooting game.
    Mike, Do a little research on the association and what it was like when men of honor were at the helm. you may see that you are not on the right side of this problem. Roger Coveleskie
     
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  47. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Hey Man, where you been? I've been wanting to ask how you did at the Casinos. They say you lit 'em up...and schmoked 'em. Wuzzup?
     
  48. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    It was touch and go for the first $500 then this happened. Sure glad they take all my money so I can't shoot trap LOL
     

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  49. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    RC in 2006 the ATA total assets were$6 million which I suspect included the sale of assets at Vandalia. Do you know any different? I am listening.
     
  50. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "By the way, I am not saying that irregularities did not happen in the past but sue the ATA if you have the evidence or let's move on

    Translation: SO WHAT
     
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  51. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    So Mike, How did they make that much money on trap shooting? The controller invested the seed money in the stock market. The EC and BOD had no hand in the control of the investments. You can thank the broker for the profits in the market. Not the EC or The useless BOD.
    Come on Mike tell us how the brilliant business minded EC made $13,000,000.00 dollars off of their trap shooting knowledge and business experience.
    Maybe it was because of their brilliant real estate purchases. Do you remember that transaction? I wonder how many like it have never seen the light of day. Roger Coveleskie
     
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  52. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    HOLY RATSHIT BATMAN! Did you leave any for the other guys? Say, do muzlims bet, or are they afraid?
     
  53. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    flyersarebest. Have you ever walked into a lawyers office and said I want to sue an organization the size of the ATA? The first thing out of his mouth is I will need a retainer of $15,000.00 to $25000.00 dollars to get started.
    That is not a gamble with good odds in any situation. Roger C.
     
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  54. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Charitable Organization????? BwaHAHAHAHAHA(Deep breath)hehehehehehehohohohohohahahaBWAHAHAHA!

    SO, how much does the ATA give to charities every year?
     
  55. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Bottom line is the Grand will be at Sparta until everyone here is dead! "

    You have a better chance of hitting the Iranian lottery.
     
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  56. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Official Historian Founding Member

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    Phantom.

    I guess to name a couple of CHARITIES the ATA DONATED to would be:

    1) The $250,000.00 to Mr. Bradford and Company a while back to put toward the Illinois owned Horse Barn.

    2) The monies they MANDATED from the shooters on each event ($1.00) at the GAH were What they would call a CHARITY gift to Mr. Bradford and The State of Illinois for that lovely building.

    As a side note, It will be interesting to see if they gouge the shooters for that extra buck at each of the Satellite Grands in the future until this barn is paid off for the State..

    I can imagine after wanting $10,000.00 from a dead man's estate, The THOF BOT will stoop to any length to get their loan paid off.
     
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  57. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Donations are voluntary, assessments are mandatory … The ATA assessed each shooter $1 per event some years back so the ATA could find and purchase a new home grounds … The money got used to buy traps without the knowledge of the members who were assessed for one reason and it was used for another … Being as it was to be used for a new home for the ATA not many balked and paid it gladly, most got pissed off big time when they found out what happened to it in reality … Its not legal but until its taken to a Court of Law and enforced nothing will be done about it and the ATA will continue to be a Cash Cow and run away train … WPT … (YAC) …
     
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  58. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "trapshooting at the Grand might not be for blue collar workers who have to travel hundred of miles" ..... what an Idiot .....

    You try too hard to regurgitate the ATA's talking points to justify their failure .....

    The "blue collar workers" probably had a much harder time Trapshooting in 1969, fifty years ago, and they were there in big numbers, than traveling to a shit-hole in BFE in 2019 .....

    Troll on ..... there are people who read these things for the first time ..... and you don't have what it takes to troll the propaganda in a believable way for them to read .....
     
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  59. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    mikej implied he thought HB was an asset to this site. I couldn't agree more. HB speaks only the truth.

    When he said mike j was trolling he was telling you all the truth. I knew from the first post but some of you guys think you have to debate with this tron (garage gunsmith) wannabe. As you can see from all the unanswered post I put to him he is just jerking off thinking he has you all riled up.

    I actually like when they come on our site. There is one site I looked at that has 2 pages about us. They even mentioned me by name. Now THAT is trolling. This guy mike j is an amateur. That's the reason he won't bet me I can afford to shoot "trap". I can more than afford it, I just won't give the ata and the guys running that circus any of it.

    From his first few posts where he used such colorful words like 'Suck salt" when made to look foolish, to now where we seem to be reading the writings of a true believer and someone that has access to the inner sanctum.

    "I spent over $15K per year shooting trap. It's a drop in the bucket for me. You seems to be a washed-up wheelchair quarterback. Go suck salt like the ATA will tell Fishburn to do.

    “I am not a CC basher even though I will not shoot there once you people continue to boycott the Grand.”

    “Jack will be back at Sparta for more bailout but he will be sent packing again!”

    “Funny thing is the only people complaining about the Grand are the boycotters.”

    “That why I am not worried about them spending money on the guaranteed purses.”


    “I don't want the Grand to be bigger. Waiting to shoot 4 hours between events in more than enough for me.”

    "Bottom line is the Grand will be at Sparta until everyone here is dead! "

    “Sadly, trapshooting at the Grand might not be for blue collar workers who have to travel hundred of miles,”

    “If you should visit the complex you will get an idea of the deep pockets of ATA shooters. If the ATA is in financial need and there is no corruption involved, I and many other would not mind donating thousands of dollars each.”

    "Go ahead and boycott Sparta we will see who it hurts"


    Sounds to me like a guy hoping to get in line for a free gun. Or maybe someone that ALREADY received his gift? And an elitist at that, LOL Feeling sorry for all us regular "blue collar" shooters?

    You arrogant bag of hot air.

    I spent 15K, drop in the bucket to me. Look at me, I have lots of money

    I spent $4000 in one week. Hey, I said look at me, I have lots of money.

    I have deep pockets and will donate thousands if asked. Hey, you're not paying attention to me, I have lots of money

    I won't go to the CC because of all the boycotters. To say that takes a SPECIAL kind of stupid.

    The next time you forget where you left your cart ask one of the "many" that you talk to.

    Remember, Dysinger was right about Winston and HB is right about this guy.

    You want to know what the "grand" in that place is like?

    Like a once great entertainer that has fallen on hard times, lost his luster, and now has only a few die hard fans showing up to listen. They just can't admit that their idol has turned into just another act that the majority don't want to see.
     
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  60. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    So, let me get this straight. What you're saying is;

    1. The ATA is Wayne Newton
    2. "Danke Schoen" is the EC
    and 3. The audience is just a bunch of lonely old camp followers with no place else to go?

    Is that what you're sayin'?:(
     
  61. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    More like this

    The ata is the entertainers agent. He doesn't want the act to stop because then there is nothing The agent knows his client doesn't have it anymore but that's all he has so he can't admit it. He hears about new and upcoming acts but he started this one on it's career and now is pretty much stuck with it.

    The EC is like the entourage. They hang around and enjoy any perks that go along with being the "yes men". The same for them, the act isn't that great anymore but they are stuck with it. Besides, the perks are OK.

    And the audience? A combination of fans that knew how great it was once but know it isn't any longer. If anyone says the act isn't as good as it once was the first thing they do is get angry and lash out. Call anyone that doesn't go to see the act names and try to belittle them. It is just half hearted at best because they know the ex fans are right, they just can't admit it. They think if they keep wishing it got better it will. Sad, but true. Not the part about it getting better, that will never happen.

    Along with those people you have the newer audience. These are the first timers that heard all about how great the act was and think it will be the same. They never saw the truly great and GRAND act. Only heard about it from some "old timers" that were there. The Golden Age of Trap Shooting the late and great Roger Smith called it. When you tell one of the diehards that they usually ignore you because they know it's the truth. Oh, they will say things like "it's the grand" but deep down inside they know that is just BS.

    And last and the least. You have the people that live right next door to the venue and when the act shows up they get so excited that they just can't help themselves. They HAVE to go. Kinda like the people that live close to one of the dive casinos in Reno or some out of the way joint in the middle of nowhere. They have to make a big deal out of it because if they don't it only reinforces what they already know but won't admit. The act sucks but we don't have anything better. Their usual response is,

    The act sucks but SO WHAT
     
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  62. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Losing an old friend is hard. Losing a loved one, someone who has been a living, breathing part of your life, is genuinely devastating. Nothing prepares us for that kind of loss. There isn't a rule book or manual to help us understand and process the impact. Death is cruel, just cruel.

    Some folks can't pick up the broken pieces. It hurts too much. Some can, but decide not to. Only a few make it to the other side.

    I hope that trapshooting can find a few survivors. Clinging to the past is not an option. A future without change is worse than a hopeless past.

    There are answers. They are there. Of the many answers offered up, the greatest and truest answers, though, will come from the survivors.

    There will probably never be a better time than now to save Trapshooting. Now is the time. Now.
     
  63. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Men make history and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better."

    Harry S Truman
     
  64. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Please add "Does not donate my welfare check to the casino" to the list. See you next year at the funeral. I might even be there for the wake.
     
  65. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Thanks for proving my point. A troll in every sense of the word.
    Trolling as in fishing and a Troll that when challenged scurries back under the bridge. I guess you could say he is smarter than winston was. When the graphmaster lost a bet he welched on it. This guy just acts like he never saw the challenge.

    I told you guys I had his number.LOL

    You all didn't really believe this guy spent $4000 at that outpost did you? This guy claims he spent what? 15K?
    Wow, in a whole year.

    Don't believe that "see you next year stuff". He will continue to come on here to try and get you to answer. I"ll take care of him, like I said, he's easy.

    And mike j?

    I can add that to the list if you like but people are going to be curious.

    "Does not donate MY welfare check to the casino"

    As in YOUR welfare check?

    Little slip there huh mike j.? You don't actually have any money right? The "shooting cart" ?The one you forgot where you left it gave it away. If you had any kind of money you would have been driving something around that outpost, not dragging some pull behind buggy you built. I could buy you one if you asked real nice.

    We will be in AC Sunday-Thursday and then Mountaineer Casino for the weekend so if you have any parting words, like you won't be back, LOL, post them before I go.
     
  66. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The only problem I see in you two having your fun is, "Mike J" throws in a propaganda post, like number 44 above, then provokes you to keep the thread alive .....

    Start a flame each other thread and go at it ..... but, when the propaganda starts, it can come up in a "search" and serve it's purpose to mislead .....

    Personal pissing matches draw attention ..... and "Mike J" knows that ..... that is why there is never a answer to any facts, just provocation to promote propaganda .....

    This is what you are feeding ..... like the hashtag (#) thing .....

    "More than half of all web traffic is made up of bots" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot

    "Technically, Web content mining mainly focuses on the structure of inner-document" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_mining
     
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  67. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Ey Flia, you don't know what a shooting cart is eh? Pull behind my behind LOL. The casino fleeced me so I had to build a pull behind shooting cart LOL hahaha. Oh crap it can't get better. Might have to send you MY welfare check so you can afford to shoot trap and you might be able to see what a shooting cart looks like. Hahahaha.
     
  68. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "that is why there is never a answer to any facts, just provocation to promote propaganda"

    Nuff said, I'll let up on him.
     
  69. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    No need to "let up on him" .....

    My point is what you are getting for what you give .....

    Congrats on the gambling ..... but "Mike J" using it as a distraction, to NOT answer things like why the "ATA" needs to make 600k plus, at the expense of the Illinois tax-payers, serves "him" better than you .....

    A troll is not a bad thing for a site ..... as long as they do not get to control the message .....
     
  70. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    I did say somewhere that the ATA might be establishing a contingency fund with the profits to address unforeseeable problem in the future. I did say that they should use some of the money to promote trapshooting countrywide. I did say that people I talked to in Illinois do not have a problem with running the facility because of the immediate returns to the community and long term benefit to the State. I am not a drunk to keep repeating myself to spoon feed people suffering from Parkinson of the brain.
     
  71. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Hit a nerve "Mike J" ????????

    Tell everyone how a "Trapshooting Charity making "$600,000 net profit for the grand", around $60,000 PER DAY, off it's "members" at the expense of the Illinois tax-payer, would make any sense to anyone except a "drunk" .....
     
  72. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Do tell "Mike J" ...... Tell everyone all about these "immediate returns" and this "long term benefit" ......

    Please show what you have that proves everything that has been shown on this site is incorrect ..... There seems to be a sober version of "Sparta", and one for "drunks" .....
     
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  73. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    There are two sides to every debate / opinion.

    "What it was supposed to do was generate as much as $100 million annually in economic impact for the region. But from the start, it drew criticism as being little more than a pork project.

    A month before the range opened, the Illinois Policy Institute called it unnecessary, questioning whether it would generate promised jobs.

    “Government has a terrible track record of picking winners and losers. More often than not, there are more losers than winners,” the institute’s former director, Greg Blankenship, said at the time.

    A decade later, the facility doesn’t come close to meeting those economic predictions that accompanied its construction. The trap association’s events are, by far, the biggest activities taking place at the range, with an estimated $27 million in economic impact. Other events are much smaller, often with shooters only staying around town for the day.

    Operationally, it’s a money-loser as well, costing about $3 million a year — including debt service — to run. It brings in about $1.1 million a year in revenue, according to the Illinois Department of Natural Resources.

    Supporters, however, are quick to argue that the range isn’t all that different from a convention center — designed to boost the surrounding the economy, even as it loses money.

    And for Sparta, a town with 4,300 residents, there’s a clear benefit, according to Rheinecker, the city manager.

    While some believe OH and PA are boycotting the Grand American, others recall the shooters in both states as well as the entire Eastern Zone, providing an honest answer to the ATA's poll question regarding attending the GAH tournament.

    RELOCATION SURVEY BY MEMBERSHIP, ATA E.C. Minutes,09APR2003-1 - Copy.jpg
    RELOCATION SURVEY BY MEMBERSHIP, ATA E.C. Minutes,09APR2003-2 - Copy.jpg


    "Build it and they will come."

    "Shooters from the Central Zone and the West will make up for the loss of Eastern Zone attendance."

    I don't recall hearing anyone ragging on shooters from those States and Zones for not attending the GAH.

    I wonder if they too are boycotting?

    Perhaps this is the prefect time to remind readers that the ATA leadership departed from their long established procedures (due diligence) regarding relocation of the organization.


    ATA E.C. Minutes April 10-14, 2002, pg.25-26 T&F, 2002NOV.pg36-37

    VP Arvas questioned the lack of amenities available at the Sparta, Illinois site, particularly lodging, restaurants, and other necessary facilities which must be available to accommodate the number of persons expected to utilize ATA relocated facilities. VP Arvas stated that unquestionably none of the
    necessary amenities or facilities are available at the Sparta, Illinois site, and it is a considerable distance from the site to any adequate number or concentration of amenities and necessary facilities.

    President Wright responded that the lack of amenities is no longer an issue of the due diligence

    investigation. This is not an issue for consideration because the lack of amenities was fully disclosed to the ATA Directors at their August, 2001 Annual Meeting, the Directors were aware of the lack of amenities in that area, and with that knowledge made the decisions which they did.

    VP Arvas asked ATA Counsel for his opinion regarding the question of lack of amenities as a part of the required due diligence investigation. Counsel responded that, in his opinion, a thorough and proper due diligence investigation must include and consider the availability and location of all necessary amenities and facilities necessary to support ATA relocation and support continuation of ATA purpose.


    Counsel further stated that, in his opinion, ATA Directors at their 2001 Annual Meeting instructed that the Executive Committee consider all aspects of the proposed relocation sites to determine suitability for relocation of ATA and its facilities, which would include necessary amenities and facilities to determine suitability.


    VP Arvas stated that he agreed with Counsel, and that in his opinion a determination of the

    availability of suitable amenities and facilities is an important and necessary part of an investigation to determine suitability of the proposed site for ATA relocation.

    Enjoy Our History !

    HB
     
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  74. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "I don't recall hearing anyone ragging on shooters from those States and Zones for not attending the GAH.

    I wonder if they too are boycotting?"

    As someone this guy mikej respects you will probably get an answer shortly.LOL
     
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  75. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I should have made it a statement to myself rather than using a question mark.

    I really don't need an answer.
     
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  76. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "Accommodation is very expensive there because of the limited number of hotels available. This to me, seems like it was a bad siting choice and could be a major reason why attendance is not as high as it should be."

    Here are just two reasons, the second is the MAJOR problem, that place doesn't get the numbers the ata said it would.

    I wonder who posted this little gem. You would think he would be tickled about the low attendance since he also said,

    “I don't want the Grand to be bigger.

    Huh, go figure. LOL
     
  77. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    HB we need the last 5 year data at Vandalia if we can make a comparison. We need demographic and attendance per event not just that of the GAH. If you can provide that I will dig up the Sparta details. By the way, accommodation is available in Sparta it is just costly. I stay in Sparta. People don't seem to mind doing the half hour drive to cheaper accommodation, however.
     
  78. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

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    "I am not a drunk to keep repeating myself to spoon feed people suffering from Parkinson of the brain."

    Never had to "spoon feed" your dying Father or Mother did you?

    My only hope is that someone has to hold the spoon for you someday.
     
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  79. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    I'm starting to wonder if there are any "courageous, skillful leaders" around here to start changing things for the better. Sho' is a whole lot of "dead horse whipping" goin' on d're Andy.
     
  80. chris henry

    chris henry Active Member

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    Does Anyone Remember In The Old Grand Programs How They Used To Post The Attendance At The Previous Grands Throughout All Those Years? I Wonder Why They Don't Post Those Figures In The Current Grand American Programs?
     
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  81. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    It appears that you (if the shoe fits, wear it (Mike J.) ...) keep asking the same question over and over until you get the answer you want or you stipulate other statistics to be used for sake of making a point for or against one site or the other ... The WSRC in Sparta, Illinois has proven time and time again that it is not and will not be a viable investment ... The EC that was in place then made a mistake, this mistake has continued over the past 14 or so years ... People talk about the facility generating 19 million dollars since re locating to the sight, there is nothing farther from the truth ... The Facility cannot and does not break even when looking at income versus cost to operate and maintain said facility ... The States claims the WSRC generates 1.1 million dollars annually, the cost to maintain and operate same exceeds 3 million dollars so that adds up to a loss and goes in the minus column ... The facts remain the same no matter what type of spin you put on it and logically/realistically it does not show promise in changing any time soon ... It does not matter where you shot last year or how much you spent doing it, these numbers do not change and have only gotten worse over time ...
    The Cardinal Center does not need the ATA, quite the opposite is true so if they do not take advantage of a self made business mans offer that would be their problem ... The Attendance at the WSRC is PATHETIC, generated financial benefits to the general and or regional area are Pathetic ... The ATA staying where they are is Pathetic and a bad decision but they have stayed this long, they should stay there until the day come when the State Closes if down for once and for all because then the ATA will be homeless and have no place to go ... Renters have no choice but to do as the Land Lord says or say good bye ... It happened before and it will happen again ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  82. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    It there towards the end Chris. Check page 117 of this year's program.
     
  83. chris henry

    chris henry Active Member

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    They Only Printed The Attendance Of The Programs Since It's Been In Sparta. They Used To Show The Attendance Going Back to 1924 I Believe.
     
  84. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Mike J,

    It is a widely known fact that the Vandalia Grands had a lot more entries because it was in a proper location. The Vandalia homegrounds were chosen because it met all necessary factors of a comprehensive due diligence process. Consideration could only be given to property of sufficient length and permitting traps to face north. However, there were other important requirements, when considering a suitable location.

    "The land must be located near a major metropolitan city (preferably no more than 20 miles away), serviced by major airlines and highways, and boasting ample motel, hotel and entertainment facilities."


    The ATA minutes show that the entire leadership body was fully aware that the Sparta location lacked the crucial elements of established due diligence requirements. And the membership poll backed up this very caution. Yet, they ignored it all. Now, its the Eastern Zone's fault that the GAH entries remain low.

    LACK OF AMENITIES-Jim Bradford.jpg

    So, I 'm not sure what you want to compare. But, here's the data you requested.

    1996-2006 GAH Attendance, T&F, OCT2006pg22.jpg
    1999-2006 Attendance By State, T&F, OCT2006pg22.jpg

    In any case, you should be aware of the following:

    1. Sparta Grands have more events than the Vandalia Grands (23 vs 18 respectively).

    2. Events changed names and were moved to different days.

    3. The 2005 GAH (last one at Vandalia) should not be used in any comparison. You might recall the E. C. tried to explain the potential problems by informing shooters there would be a minimum target requirement to participate; shortened events; limited parking; and that they might make the trip out but may not be able to shoot. That scared the heck out of many members who decided to opt out of the big shoot. Total entries were almost 8700 less than 2004.

    It should have been a record Grand American tournaments (final one at Vandalia), second only to the 100th Anniversary when 5,000 shooters entered the Grand American Handicap event.
    However, its success was squandered by the E. C. in the warning they gave to those wanting to attend.


    HB
     
  85. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Same thing happened at the Grand in 2000 .....

    They raised the target requirements ..... wanted entries days in advance ..... and so on ......

    The first few days of the 2000 Grand looked like a ghost-town ..... They started offering join the ATA and shoot the same day with no penalty, to try and correct the blunder ..... I was there .....
     
  86. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    Thanks HB. Have to read your post on a computer rather than a cell phone I now using. I would say there are reasonable amenities at Sparta now even though more hotels can be helpful. Airport is not a major obstacle because I actually flew in once to St. Louis and it was not a problem because it was the day before shooting anyway. It not like flying in for a business conference and flying back out. Do you have any data on final construction costs and how it was funded and the ATA "tenant responsibility" in terms of financial obligations?
     
  87. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Thanks for the laugh Mike.....post more often.

    The industry leaders disagreed. LOL Amenities are so terrible at Illinois the SCTP (industry vendors leaders etc) voted to put their flagship shoots at anywhere but that place.

    The SCTP was so serious about not even considering Sparta they opted for a ten year deal at the CC. Too late Mike. Sparta sucks....at least that's what the NSSF and SCTP said. A decade of whining wont help. But it is fun to hear. LOL
     
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  88. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    I stopped responding to people related to doorknobs. Have a nice day.
     
  89. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    OH come on. You know that fact is funny. Funny because it was the industry that made the decision. LOL Please stick around. Whine for another ten years. But don't blame us. It was the industry that made the decision.
     
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  90. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mods---Mike is not being a good "forum leader" !!!!
     
  91. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff State HOF Official Historian Member State Hall of Fame Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Mike J, some folks disagree. And, if the Grand tournament was ever able to regain its approximate 3700 entries instead of 2,000 in recent years, the need for additional amenities would become more apparent.

    I have construction costs and all lease agreements (even the MOU) between the ATA & IDNR on file. It's best you make and post your comparison between Sparta and Vandalia first. One thing at a time Sir.

    HB
     
  92. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster Forum Leader

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    When you say 2000 entries I guess you are talking GAH only. There were over 3,500 shooters classified and I am sure they didn't drive out to the middle of nowhere just for a pin. I'll try to gather the data ASAP but I am very busy this weekend.
     
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  93. Smithy

    Smithy Elite Poster Founding Member

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    No they would not do that. I have known shooters to take the cards of many friends to get classified and return with a handful of pins. I am surprised you did not know that. Hmmm do you really shoot trap?
     
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  94. chris henry

    chris henry Active Member

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    The G.A.H Is The Grand Daddy Of All Shooting Events. And Is Scheduled To Shoot At The Most Convenient Time To Draw The Most Shooters. And I Think Is A Excellent Event To Look At To Determine The Overall 'Health' Of Our Shooting Sport. Everyone Knows Singles Are For Show But Handicap Is For The Dough.
     
  95. Family Guy

    Family Guy Americantrapshooter.com King of Posters Founding Member

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    Chris - questions about your post.
    1. Are you saying the sport of trapshooting is registered trapshooting? Do most trapshooters drive to Illinois?

    If not how is that a measure?

    2. Do most trapshooters register their targets?

    If not how is a single registered event a good measurement?
     
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  96. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    HB,

    How many international shooters were there at the 2019 Grand?

    Thank you.
     
  97. The Phantom

    The Phantom Village Idiot Village Idiot Forum Leader

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    Does 1978 mean our sport has cancer?
     
  98. Welther

    Welther Active Member

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    Trapshooting is doing great in my area. ATA shooting is weak but we have the same numbers on the line as in the 80's .
     
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  99. chris henry

    chris henry Active Member

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    Obviously I Am Talking About Registered Trapshooting. After All We Are Talking About The Grand American And The Attendance. The Grand American Handicap Is Typically The Biggest Event With The Most Entries Of Any Event Held At The Grand.
     
  100. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Welther,
    Funny ( not really ) that you should say that but I was in Cost Co just yesterday and ran into 6 former ATA shooters that I know personally and have for several years … Long story short I got 6 invites to go up to the club ( Ben Avery) any of 4 days per week by one or more of them … I mentioned (asked ) if any of them have been back to the grand since it moved to Sparta, Ill one guy said he went one time and he was finished, the other 5 didn't even bother and do not miss it … These were all regular ATA shooters that have shot for many years who just up and quit, I think all but one of them are Life Members … The good news is Trap shooting is alive and well around here even with the heat, (100 plus every day) they shoot early and go to lunch (Wild Horse West ) and head home …
    The ATA it appears stomped on its own nuts when it made the move and continue driving more and more shooters away the longer they stay at the WSRC (Sparta, ILL) … The Members just do not care any more and that is the biggest problem the ATA has because shooters talk to other shooters, before you know it Poof and its gone … Six or seven shooters are not going to make or break the grand or the ATA, but they lost in essence 1700 plus on the average in just one event … That adds up very quickly when you look at the over all attendance records over the last 13/14 years … WPT … (YAC) …
     

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