Tell me in Plain English " Why Was This Site Started "

Why was this site started? I thought the members had INTEGRITY, & HONESTY at heart.

To bring back the ATA as it was first started for, Members w/ Honesty and Integrity, How many of YOU have Honesty & Integrity?

I personally feel it was to point out all the Misdirections and see if WE could bring back, reel in the ATA with rules w/teeth.

Target settings that follow the 1924 specifications, and FINES to the Club and it's Managers. Violations of rule settings $5,000 first offense, 2nd offense $7,500 and
Club Manager be replaced..


Very Good Members like past president TEXAN NEAL CRAUSABY, Kay Ohye, Frank Hoppe, Britt Robinson, Ray Stafford, Harlan Campbell, Rick Marshall Etc.

Gary Bryant life member ATA....................................Dr.longshot

 

Well Doc, you were obviously mistaken in what you thought this site would be; according to this excerpt from the Forum info page it appears that "American Trapshooter" is truly an open forum for all to speak and not just a vehicle for the chronically angry and disillusioned. Guess that means we can all kick a dead horse but should expect plenty of vocal disagreement.

The forum administration and moderators encourage membership and posters from all of the shotgun sports. This not just an ATA, PITA, or NSSA forum. Trapshooters at all levels are encouraged to post. Gun toters are also welcome. We are inclusive!

 

I can't believe I am doing this but here goes :
Please point out any and all members of this site that do not or have not demonstrated Honesty, Integrity, and to be men ( people ) of Honor ..?
The ATA has much bigger problems than target setting be that as it may to setting back to 1924, or 1975 for that matter … The RULE BOOK has variables plainly posted so to try and fine a club for setting targets more than or less than the Posted and accepted variables is BLOWING SMOKE and would not and should be allowed … I have shot at many clubs over the years and find it difficult to believe any one of them set targets that were not accepted as legal in the written rules … The RULE BOOK does not say nothing about having to set targets in the 3 hole, so they set them in the two hole because that's what their customers want and expect … The changes that have come about over the past 50 years in the Organization, free guns, expenses paid, the Elected Officials expecting to be treated like Rock Stars and catered to at the clubs expense while they attend shoots as representatives of the Membership, yet they shy away from the members and hide in a delegated room so they can get away from the members is a problem … Hell, if all it was,were the targets being reset to the standards of 1924 the fix would be a simple one, it goes far beyond that and those in charge are not going to let it be taken away from them or those standing in line for the awards …
By mentioning the names "

"Very Good Members like past president TEXAN NEAL CRAUSABY, Kay Ohye, Frank Hoppe, Britt Robinson, Ray Stafford, Harlan Campbell, Rick Marshall Etc." maybe you should get them to respond to this post kind of like they got your back", be interesting to see where that goes … If anyone thinks the problem is limited to target setting they got another think coming, to keep harping on it only makes you look like you are out of touch with reality … WPT … (YAC) … ​

 

In 1924 we had a real "puller". You know, the one that physically cocked the target by hand. Targets were set at whatever yardage or angle was convenient that day. Reloaded shotshells were a thing of the future and 1 1/4oz. loads with unknown canister powders were the norm. Plenty of Model 97's and various single barrel shotguns were in vogue while release triggers were virtually unknown. Let's not forget real hand pulling while earplugs and shooting glasses were for sissies.

Doc, you go back to 1924, I'm staying right here.

 

Doc, how old were you in 1924?

 

If I remember correctly, not long ago the traps could be timed to the point where you could get a straightaway bird pretty regularly. It was before the Pat Trap, and after the random hand maneuvered set angles of 1924. Even if they were three hole targets, if you were a regular shooter of those traps, you rarely seen the angles you wish for. Did you shoot all of those good averages during this period?

Even if you hand pulled, and used a Pat Trap to throw three hole targets today, to the 50 yd stake, the same people would dominate in the ATA, and other competitions. It may drop the averages, but the averages would still be in line with the talent.

 

STY,
The old 1524 hand set trap with the mechanical interupter was the hardest trap to try and read. The Pat trap is the easiest if the management never changes the pegs in the interupter motor. They seem to leave the factory with a set pattern.
You are correct about the same top shooters winning regardless of where the targets are set. The settings are not the problem, the fact that no two clubs use the same settings as required in the ATA setting guides is the real problem. The lack of uniformity and the lack of enforcing the rules is also a problem.
The game has morphed into what it was many years ago, a rich mans sport. The blue collar worker is no longer a viable part of the sport. To go to a club and shoot three events on a weekend costs $192.00 average for 300 targets that does not include and options. A working man with children can not afford to do that many times a month and still feed his family. I do not know what the answer is, but if the people involved do not get together and discuss different ideas the sport is doomed to be lost as to how we knew it was at one time. Roger C.

 

This whole thing makes me think at my age "What do I give a crap?"

I look at some of the pictures of some members and say the same thing.

It appears they are too late in life to need to care.

Go shoot, have some fun, and forget all the BS that will never change.

 

I joined here because I am not a sheep with an IQ of 44 or a 20-1/2 yard handicapper that doesn't shoot anywhere but his home club.
I joined here because I couldn't stomach all the " the ata is almighty and can do no wrong" crap.
You want to know the ironic thing?
All those asshats KNOW the ata sucks but they also know it's all they have. They are screwed and know it but if they admit it they prove we are right.THIS is their "golden age of Trap shooting ". I actually feel sorry for them. They will NEVER know how good it was.At least we can look at our Grand trophies and remember what we spent the big checks on. Remember what it was like to be with OVER 4000 shooters for the GAH event alone.
The poor schmucks can only dream about it. I know why Elmer Keith titled his book what he did. It fits us too.

When one of those ring kissers starts talking about the good old days by starting with, did you ever hear about the time,we can say,

Hell, I was there!

One of the head mouth pieces and past ata big shots will come on here and try to discredit posters with his lame attempt at sarcasm and drawings but even he knows they screwed the pooch when they moved.
He will post 140 patterns but NEVER tell anyone why the attendance at that place in IL is so PATHETIC. Just like his lemming followers, he can't say it out loud. It proves us right.

 

Judging by the current threads, I'd say it was to talk about the ATA....good and the bad and its events.
Not shooting, not target shooting, not clays shooting, not trapshooting; the ATA.

 

Mudpack,
The reason was to inform shooters of the nature and working of the sport. The ATA and EC seem to dominate the conversations. Mostly because of the secretive way that they run the sport, and how they have weedled the control away from the members over time. If they were doing a stellar job they would be praised on here, but they are not.
So many of the posters point out their short comings and some of their neferious actions.
No one has to agree with everything that is posted on here, but it is worth giving the post some serious thought.
Roger C.

 

It's interesting, as I'm sure this site had good intentions, but when every post morphs into something unrecognizable, it tends to lose it's integrity. Everyone has the right to an opinion, and believe me I've questioned my own after reading some of the posts here. Yes there's been some questionable dealings. Yes there's been a move that on paper seemed the only out, only to cut your attendance in half due to a lack of infrastructure. Yes target setting is widely criticized and a very subjective issue, based on Club backgrounds, personal likes/dislikes. Yes there could be more transparency at all levels. But at the end of the day writing a post here or any other forum isn't enough. While I only know a few here that have been an ATA Delegate or EC member, or ever spent time behind the scenes at a Gun Club or Major Shoot, you have know idea what really goes on to affect these decisions. So as I've said before, get out from behind the Keyboard, run for ATA Delegate and begin to be the change you're looking for! Otherwise you look like CNN, ad nauseam trying to bring down Trump, only it's the ATA?

 

If ATA starts fining clubs, they will quit throwing ATA targets.

 

I joined this site for the simple reason I heard you have an open forum and don't ban people for no reason.
As for trapshooting, when the Grand left Vandalia, my shooting became almost non-existent. I played a lot more Golf, and in 2011 started shooting Sporting Clays. Just recently (during the summer months) I will pull out one of my old trap guns and shoot some of the big shoots around my area, just for the sport of it. With that attitude I really don't care how the targets are set, I can hit most of whatever they throw. I have become older now and my days of complaining about the ATA are over. I distance myself from them, and I now shoot better than I ever have in my many years of shooting.

 

Like your pals from PA that failed to investigate 2012PULL and the gun giveaway that was against the bylaws.

OK I'll bite on that one too. Tell us DEDPAIR why your pals never asked for a roll call vote. Why did they go along with hiding votes? Tell us what really went on behind the scenes.

Tell why your friends looked the other way.

 

Smithy you just proved my point, as here we go again? LOL Why don't you ask your State Delegate and see what they say? I don't kknow the answer, maybe you should ask someone who's been a delegate? Same old BS every time!!!

 

This site lets the truth and facts be known if anyone wants to take the time to read the majority of the threads and postings ... I seem to recall on occasion if and when anything was questioned, proof has been provided or at least a link to that proof was posted ... I have a problem with anyone questioning a mans (persons) Integrity, degree of Honesty, and Honor because someone or anyone does not agree with any individual's idea's or that would question the existence of this or any site because they do not agree ... The ATA has far more problems than the target settings which can and do vary but are still set with in the plus and minus degree as stated in the rules ... The clubs set the targets the customer wants and has become accustomed to over the last 20 plus years ... I have been a Life Member since 1975 and to the best of my knowledge there has never been a steadfast, precise, exact setting called for by the rules of the Organization ... If this site did not exist there are many things that would never be known or ever be discussed, be that as it may and like it or not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I read where Family Guy did that. Was told delegate didn't have to answer questions. But you keep yapping that "we don't know" why these decisions are made. You keep telling us we don't know but obviously you do. And you never answer why the PA delegates have been turning the other way. FREE GUNS! HIDDEN VOTES! So tell us what and why. We all want to hear.

 

Smithy - Perhaps you should Poll the previous Ohio Delegates and let me know how they fared? I know 2 personally and hold them in High respect, so would Love to hear about their efforts!!

 

DEDPAIR
Your are telling me to compare skunk "A" to skunk "B" and that proves your point? Nope it proves mine. The system is inherently corrupt. Don't give me the we had Glen crap or hooray for Skip. Neither demanded a roll call vote. Neither made sure we knew who voted how. All turned the other cheek. Now continue with the crap where I would not understand why, but you do.

So tell us why DEDPAIR. Tell us why the PA delegates, your pals have looked the other way. And by the way. You do not know where I have lived or shot.

 

Doc:

I am going to stray a little bit going from past to present. I am going to give my holiday thoughts about the site as a fairly recent reader and participant.

I can only offer my idea about the genesis of this site. I am not a founding member. I was not here then. My idea about the “why” of this site was to offer an alternative to the other site.

I was around the other site when it was owned by its founder. I enjoyed it then. It certainly became a different animal after the sale. It strikes me the other site is all about the money now. I am talking advertisers and sponsors. My understanding is there is money in some member participant websites. Once one grows into profitability; they become attractive to website investors. My understanding is there are busnesses involved in website buying, holding and selling.

I really enjoyed the Grand in Ohio. That said; I did not get to go as often as I would have liked. I did make arrangements to be there the last year. I knew the Grand would never be the same in any other location.

I just could not comprehend the thinking behind the Illinois selection. I could not have understood California or New Jersey for the same reason. They are just not known as firearms friendly. Making a pact with the State of Illinois was like making a deal with the devil in my view.

So here we are today. I live far from both Vandalia and Sparta. I am given to understand Ohio trapshooters have plenty of shooting opportunities which allow them to sleep under their own roof. I enjoy no such luxury. So I just choose venues which agree with my idea of a good time with a single shot with no safety. I even get to use an OU for about one third, give or take, of the action. Life is good.

If some members here are put off by some nostalgia and some grumbling; why not treat that like a “what shells” or “what gun” discussion over there at the other place? There is no rule here which prohibits anyone from starting a discussion or contributing to a discussion about some topic other than the ATA: past, present or future.

Be thankful! Nobody is in the shadows monitoring to insure one contributes to Sparta/Vandalia/ATA threads before one can list an item for sale. That is my view.

Happy holidays to all!

 

Still waiting on the Answer??


So tell us why DEDPAIR. Tell us why the PA delegates, your pals have looked the other way. And by the way. You do not know where I have lived or shot.[/QUOTE]

Funny, your profile says East St Louis in the past, now Ohio? Did you forget where you live? LOL If by some chance you Live in PA, the Annual meeting is June 16th at 8am during the State Shoot.

 

It never said "East St. Louis"
Now tell us about the stuff we have to know that happens behind the scenes as you say that would cause your friends in PA to turn the other direction when it comes to the secret voting. Tell me why Glenn and Skippy never cared.

Why did they allow the secret voting?

Or you can tell me why the Ohio delegates you have so much respect for allowed the secret voting.

 

Seriously Smithy????

 

Dedpair….tell me what me living in East St. Louis for a short time has to do with your delegate friends turning the other way and turning their back on the membership.

Tell us why they allowed secret votes. You say you know we don't know enough. Tell why your pals would do this. What is Skippy's reasoning on that?

 

Sounds like Smithy's been living in a cardboard box at various locations.

 

Smithy - I'll divert back to Doc's original question, and sincerely apologize to him for this intrusion upon his thread! And to answer Doc's question, it was intended to give an open forum to all that would listen. So i'd suggest you continue to use this site to further your agenda of full Transparency. With 6 months or so, and a lot of campaigning at your local ATA Clubs, you should be able to rally enough support in your current Home State to become that States ATA Delegate. Once you've accomplished that, please report back after each years BOD meeting, detailing all the Votes!

 

Speaking of Delegates, back when the WSRC was being considered as the new location I was able to have some discussions with a few of the Delegates that I knew or had met over the years about the vote and who voted what on behalf of the members ... I was told back then that the Delegates were told how to vote if they knew what was good for them, no matter what the people they represented wanted ... I talked to a couple of Delegates after it was said and done and they confirmed what I was told by the others ... The Delegates that went against the wishes never got re elected because they did not do what those they represented wanted them to do ... The FIX was in on the facility in Illinois (not that it matters any more ) and the ATA had made up the mind of the membership that Illinois was going to be the new home of the ATA one way or the other ... We are all very well aware of how that turned out and how PATHETIC the attendance has been ever since the relocation to Illinois ... Being able to Post (FACTS) things such as this is one of the reasons this site came about, post it any place else and you would probably be on Double Secret Probation or something even worse ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Questionable dealings? Atta boy DEDPAIR. Just like your pals / PA delegates. They helped keep the votes secret. No PA delegates in recent memory asking for transparent / accountable votes.

And then you categorize the dealings as just questionable.

 

There ya go...….DEDPAIR telling the public not to criticize the PA or anyone's delegates that have kept the votes secret until you have been on the BOD yourself.

Hey DEDPAIR. I don't want to hang out with your pals that are going to keep the votes hidden. How about you just tell us why your PA delegates have done that the last 20 years. Like you say you are in the know. We aren't. Tell us when Skippy and Glen stood up and demanded a roll call vote.

Or why did they want to keep the votes secret?

 

DEDPAIR doesn't get it I guess. It is the BOD's job to detail the votes to us. + 1 for Smitty

 

I realize the mods do not start the threads, nor do they directly control what we members post.
I'm saying THE POSTING MEMBERS here seem to want to talk about the ATA to the exclusion of just about everything else. I think the posts following yours and mine demonstrate this to a remarkable degree.

While this site may not have been started for the purpose of discussing all things ATA, unfortunately that is certainly what it has morphed into.

 

Non ATA related: (OK a little ATA related) Cloverdale, Ohio (population about 126) had 19 squads Sunday Shooting for meat. Non Registered. If it was registered and the same size could be called the Putnam County Ohio Grand. But truth be told if it was registered would only have about 19 shooters (at most) no matter what the name or ATA points awarded. Brad

 

One thread today started about selling shotguns; zero replies to date (not exactly a hot topic, I guess), zero bumps for threads dealing with that topic. Not talking about the classifieds section, talking about the Trapshooting Forum.
I'd start a non-ATA thread if I had a good question to ask, but I don't at this time.
Maybe next week when I don't know it all?

 

Dedpair, I hate to agree with you but you do have a point. However, there is at least hope that this site will evolve into something very good and very valuable and maybe to all kinds of shotgun games not just the agonizingly dying sport of trap.
By and large, a post here is a post. It is not awarded a red badge of banishment because some mod doesn't agree with it. It is not deleted (At least seldom are threads deleted if we all tell the truth.)
But Joe is right. The posts here, unlike some other unmentionable place, are not controlled by the hall monitors. People post what they want to post and respond as they want to respond.
It is clear that many here came here because they felt awful about what had and was happening to the ATA. Watching our beloved sport die at the hands of bureaucratic entrenched officers and directors who use rules to secure their tenure and benefits is pretty painful.
But it is an open forum. Freedom! Remember that concept? Celebrate it.
Regards, Jake

 

Sigh.

 

OK,

Let me begin a NON ATA conversation that could possibly be of interest to the newer trap shooters on here.

Several years ago my wife was beginning to hit her targets more quickly than when she first began shooting.

Her scores were going down for no apparent reason (she thought) aS HER SIGHT PICTURE HAD REMAINED THE SAME AS ALWAYS.

Enter a very good friend from Canada who was on his way to the Silver Dollar for the winter with his wife, and stopped by our place in South Carolina for a visit and some shooting.

After a day shooting, our friend who I will call Terry to conceal his identity, happened to see my wife was shooting under targets. and when she did hit them she was taking the bottoms off them.

He asked if we had patterned the gun lately because he had noticed a quicker firing of the gun by her, and figured that could be why she was shooting under them..

Her Pattern used to be 60/40 when she began shooting.

Terry noticed her hits were at the center bottom of her targets, so he suggested setting a trap on straight away and begin shooting the targets.

He said IF she were shooting the sides of the targets we should begin with patterning on paper to get that side to side of the pattern centered up, and then proceed with his suggestion.

The following week we did just that, and found she was shooing under, or just taking the bottoms off her targets, yet centered from side to side.

Terry had told us to just begin moving the comb up on her gun until she began either topping the targets, or shooting over them.

At that point he told us to then lower the comb until she was crushing those straight away targets, and leave it there.

My wife's scores went up immediately, and when I called Terry, he said with the rising target, and her shooting so much quicker, he figured she needed some adjustment for a higher point of impact.

There we have an Ontario Canada Hall of Famer's point of view on setting your point of impact on moving targets.

This fellow who we will call Terry had some mighty valuable information, and I hope some of the new shooters will try this out

So, there we have something NON ATA related, and I hope it can help the ordinary NON ATA league and practice shooter like it did for my wife and me.

Perhaps we should begin a new thread to chat about these things, and forget ATA for a spell.

 

Looks like the Doc won't get an answer to his question. People too busy taking potshots at each other and people with a grudge of some sort. Reminds me of people moving from one state ( site ) because they couldn't stand it any more and making their new home ( site ) just like the old one.

 

Thanks for the award. The tone of your response answers all of my questions. This thread seems to indicate the purpose of the site was to have a more friendly and open discussion of trapshooting and all things related.. That doesn't seem to be working too well.

 

jbailey,
It does work on this site. You received an answer to your observation.. On the other site you would have been banned for the same statement. Suck it up butter cup, some times your feelings will take a hit on this site, but you will not get kicked off for not agreeing. Roger C.

 

I can read post 3. I sense a negative tone from jbailey. I may be new here but the thread looked answered to me. Where was the word "friendly" used here? Jbailey should refrain from taking jabs at the site. Kudo to mod justjoe.

 

I see this site an open discussions on the shooting sports. If u get your feelings hurt every time someone disagrees with u, don't post.