Gipson -" Everything revolves around the All-American"

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by BRAD DYSINGER, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I don't have the insiders giving me the info that Merlo gets but I still have some contacts in the trap shooting world and one sent me this article from the Illinois Outdoor News dated November, 16, 2018. I will post it for you to read but some quick takes I have on it.

    1. I was amused to hear that Brazil and New Zealand were shooting so many ATA targets. I wonder when they will have delegates?
    2. 60,000 members, I don't believe it.
    3. The building the ATA is in in Sparta was just perfect. (say Pull 2012 anyone)
    4. Everything the ATA does for their membership. Not wanting to steal their time, but don't say a word about their money.
    5. And then Gibson said it ....However, everything revolves around the All-American....Is this a fact or a Freudian Slip?
    Here is the article read it yourself.
    Sparta Nerve Center copy.jpg
     
  2. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Fourth paragraph
    "The executive committee was kind of assuming the role. Everything was kind of disjointed, there was kind of right hand-left hand stuff going on. It just made sense to have the office here where the grand is."

    Right hand-Left hand? More like SLEIGHT OF HAND

    Sure made sense to the boys involved in Pull2012 didn't it? Somebody KIND OF made out on that deal.

    "OK guys, get the girls out and put down your drinks, I got a hell of an idea. I found a building that is dirt cheap. I mean really cheap, especially since it is in the very area we need. Now, me and some of the boys can get the money together no problem. THEN, we sell it to the organization at a higher price. Not a LOT higher mind you, just a little bit higher.
    Yeah I could do that but we found it. Think of it as a finders fee.
    Yeah, I know me and my investors will be making a profit on the deal but look at it this way, the organization is still getting a good price so what's the problem? No one is going to know and all we want to do is wet our beak a little so it's a win win deal for all of us.
    What do you say? Good, it's done then"

    Couple of paragraphs later.
    " That is even more mind boggling when one realizes that hunters shoot in eight categories"

    What's mind boggling is that good old Les uses the word hunters. I pretty much quit reading his "accurate informed" article after that little faux pas.

    I did read the last sentence. Maybe Les should have checked with the tax payers on that little gem.

    He also should have asked for a graph.
     
  3. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    They ARE STILL BLOWING SMOKE UP THE A$$es of the state of Ill. Any member with the common sense of last years bird's nest knows this is all bull s&&t. Roger C.
     
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  4. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    People used to ask how Skeets tasted when I mentioned I was going out to "Shoot Skeet", so I guess now someone is out hunting when they say thay are going out to shoot some "Trap".

    That, and those enormous membership figures just make me laugh and laugh...Sort of like his 15,000 campers.

    And, you know my feelings on 2012 PULL …

    Did the minutes ever get corrected to INCLUDE 2012...I think not !

    And now we all know the thinking of ATA..It revolves around the ALL AMERICAN

    ATA laughter at it's best.

    Gipson belongs in the Comic section...


     
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  5. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Ever wonder what makes him worth $200,000.00 a year to the ATA? Just about every thing he says is pure bull shit. He would not last a week working for people that did not have an ulterior motive. Roger C.
     
  6. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    I must have missed where Gipson said everything revolves around the All American.
    I believe the author had a typo there and meant the Grand American.
    But whatever.
    Reading this article is like reading the Bible, everyone reads things differently.
     
  7. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Don't ya love it when someone comes along with no information and says no sir. Nah, he said that but they don't feel that way.

    101 great to have you around. You make the rest of us look like rocket scientists. Please read the quotes below. From an ex ATA President.


    The above post quoted on this site by OSTA President Don Cogan January 14, 2015

    Depends on the Kool Aid flavor?

    So tell us how you read Wagner's quote? From the time he was an ATA President. Got a graph on that one?
     
  8. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Ok FG,
    Nothing was mentioned in the article posted above by Dysinger about what Jeff Wagner sais.
    Jeff Wagner was not even mentioned in the above article!
    I was referencing the above article.
    But once again, FG, your magical powers of seeing shit not written has come through!
    Don't know how you do it, and really don't give a flying f#%k!
    You're an ass and you show it every time SPARTA is mentioned.
    KEEP BEATING THE ,/,/,/,/ DEAD HORSE YOU ASSHOLE!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2019
  9. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    There ya go, a typical response from a Kool-Aid drinker. You know you would get "banned" from the Kool-Aid stand if you posted your reply to FG anywhere else don't you?

    Google is your friend

    "Typo
    is short for typographical error, and you can also call it a misprint. Typos are errors made during the typing process that have been missed by editors and proofreaders. Originally, typos were mistakes made during typesetting, but today you can use the term for mistakes in any typewritten text, from instant messages to social media posts."

    If winkler would have typed All AmIrican, THAT would have been a TYPO.

    Come up with a better explaination.
     
  10. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Typo or misprint, doesn't matter.
    Gipson did not say," Everything revolves around the All American " in the article posted above.
    That was my point.
     
  11. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Typo and misprint ARE THE SAME THING

    And how would you know what gipson said or didn't say?

    Unless you were standing there when the conversation took place you really don't have any idea what was said, do you?

    Try again
     
  12. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    THE ARTICLE DID NOT SAY GIPSON SAID IT!
    THAT PARAGRAPH HAD NO QUOTATION MARKS INDICATING IT WAS SPOKEN WORD!
    PROBABLY ANOTHER TYPO OR MISPRINT SINCE THE ARTICLE DIDN'T SAY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO!
    MAYBE THE AUTHOR SHOULD HAVE ASKED YOU AND FAMILY GUY WHAT TO TYPE !
     
  13. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    I remember having heard a story concerning the EC view of marathons prior to the creation of the point system. As a matter of fact, the Grand was still in Ohio at the time. Anyway, it was the consensus of the EC that there was no interest in marathons as there were no trophies or money. A not so executive pointed out things like target attainment, meeting minimum target requirements, shooting endurance conditioning and becoming better prepared for a shoot which in fact counted for something.

    It does not matter whether the marketing minded ED meant to say All American or Grand American. The impact on small gun clubs is the same.

    Sparta is not the epicenter. It is not the mecca. It is just the place which has an office for the ED and the girls. It also has a couple of shoots a year.

    Points chasers are certainly a small percentage of the mythical 60,000 or the real figure: whatever that figure may happen to be. The points chasers have lots of discretionary income and free time. Both are required.

    The EC should inquire why an organization with an alleged membership of 60,000 can only draw about 2000 to its annual convention. The EC need look no further than the attendance figures for State Shoots by resident members of the state. What is the state membership number for the state vs the attendance. If they would look at real numbers and talk to just some of the rest of the not so well known; they might well receive some valuable insight. They might even recognize the need to establish a direction other than the fantastic (fantasy) direction.
     
  14. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    So where is the epicenter or " mecca"? Ofreakinghio?
    Where was Ofreakinghio when they found out the grounds at Vandalia were going away?
    Where?
     
  15. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    win101, read the 4th from the last paragraph from the end of Gipson's letter. Your language is disgusting. There are young people that read these posts. Yours is a good reason to be given a hiatus from posting on this site. Only idiots must resort to the language that you used. People that can not use the English language with out swearing are very stupid. I think you fit this catagory. Roger C.
     
  16. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Now that is funny. It is Ohio's fault Gipson spoke.
    They never left. Still there. OH and PA still throw 80% of all targets thrown in the U.S.

    But like Gipson said...….Everything revolves around the all American.
     
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  17. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Roger, I have read it several times. It is not a "letter". It is a NEWSPAPER ARTICLE!
    I'll say it again without using " disgusting " language.
    It DOES NOT say Gipson said it!

    And, I don't give a .... about what you think of me!
    Thought I was going to say something " disgusting" didn't you?
     
  18. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Great Smitty!
    Wondered how long it would be before your happy ass chimed in.
    Obviously, you can't stay out of any discussion.
    Nap time over?
     
  19. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    \
    Yes....it more than says it. It even shows Gispon posing for the photo. And the photo is in front of the T&F sign. Gipson manages that. Yep the rag paper that double the amount of entries at the grand. They got caught doing that too. And don't forget the statement of the 15,000 shooters that were at campground. And another 15,000 in motels.

    Thanks for the wake up.
     
  20. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    @Win101

    There is no collective mecca. Each has what they find as their own in this sport. The epicenter is out there somewhere. The trick would have been to find the epicenter and build a mecca there.

    The respondents in the survey told the ATA there was little interest in fill in the blank (any) location in Illinois. The collective wisdom, or lack of wisdom, in positions of leadership told the respondent prospective attendees they were wrong. That is historical fact. Only individual elitists or a small body of elitists conduct business that way. The job description then and now specifies caretakers.
     
  21. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Active Member

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    You fellas are missing the big quote. They are "shooting a lot of targets in Brazil and New Zealand." According to the ATA they have 7 traps in New Zealand. Mississippi numbers I suspect.
     
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  22. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    How did you get the same super power of seeing things not written that FG and Flyers have ?
    That's totally amazing!
    Must have read a different article than the one Dysinger posted above!
    Hope someday I can get that super power.
     
  23. BigMonty

    BigMonty Member

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    According to the Mississippi delegate...they cant get more than 15 shooters in an event.
    Part time reader here. Even I have seen those quotes on the site from Gipson. Maybe 101 needs some of doc's meds.
     
  24. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Oh!Monty!
    Not you too!
    Say it ain't so!
     
  25. BigMonty

    BigMonty Member

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    Don't be a dumb ass Win101. Gipson said that to the same reporter prelim week of grand. All the information above in the article came from Gipson. The writer would only know what was given to him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2019
  26. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    2 freaking years later?
    Give me a break!
    Whatever!
     
  27. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Somebody wake up WPT!
    He might as well chime in, too!
    We'll see if he has the same super power!
    If he does then we'll know it came in a bottle from Walmart!!!!!!
     
  28. BigMonty

    BigMonty Member

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    There was also the time Sparta was shuttered.
    Gipson responded by saying we have this going "in a fantastic direction."
     
  29. BigMonty

    BigMonty Member

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    Then there was the time mentioned when the forum caught 'em lying about the number of entries. Gipson's publication had to make a retraction. 30,000 too high. Ooops. did we say that?
     
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  30. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    The article was written by Les Winkeler: a contibuting author. That means he is not a member of the publication’s staff. The name of no other source appears in the article. No anonymous sources were mentioned.

    I did a search on the shooter information center. There are two persons with the Winkeler last name in the ATA. One is Joseph from Illinois. Joseph Winkeler has 1800 lifetime singles, no handicap and 200 doubles.

    Are Joseph and Les related? Is Les a nickname or pen name for Joseph? Does Joseph shoot a Winchester 101? :)

    Can someone with an average book check out Joseph’s city? Joseph joined in 2015.
     
  31. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I talked to Winkler. I was trying to verify some of the crap given by Gipson. He said he doesn't shoot. After talking to him I was more than convinced he is only looking for something to write. I told him he is looking foolish and that we make fun of him.
     
  32. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Wow! You bust my ass and you used the same language. What a hypocrite
     
  33. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    As a contributor (only), he probably comes with no degree in journalism. A journalist, by training knows these things:

    Obtain collaboration! Do not trust a single source! The motive of a single source may include bias. Your good name depends upon your adherence to ethical standards of journalism. When one causes a reputable news organization to lose credibility in the eyes of their consumers; one must seek employment in another field.

    He allowed himself to be puppet mastered by the ED.
     
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  34. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    101 if you read the paragraph before the All American quote you see Gibson's name. then after the all american quote you see myself and our marketing manager mentioned. These three paragraphs are a thought and connected. In fact in English composition everything from Gibson says to the end can be attributed to him as he is the only person interviewed for the article. Maybe Winston can clear this up?

    Now I would hope that the writer misquoted him and he did mean the (Grand American) but with all the other BS in the article we can only speculate. It would be best for him to issue a clarifying statement on this because unless he does it appears that the ATA don't give a crap about the AVERAGE ATA MEMBER, which is what I believe. Brad
     
  35. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    win101, You are about as dumb as a rock. Talking to you is the same as talking to WPT's toaster. No I think the toaster could be a more intelligent object to talk to. At least it would not be as foul mouthed as you. Roger C.
     
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  36. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    How in the hell does someone "misprint" or "typo" whole paragraphs? You don't even understand the meaning of those two words and you have the nerve to call people names? You sir are an IDIOT. Now, before you start to whine that I called you a name remember this. IF SOMEONE IS AN IDIOT, CALLING THEM THAT IS NOT RIDICULING THEM. They are what they are. It is the same as if I called you a genius. If you WERE a genius I would be correct in calling you that.
    I am not mocking you, just stating a fact, so I am correct in calling you an idiot.

    I didn't write the article. If I had written it I would have asked Gipson about PULL2012 and the deal that got that building in the "epicenter" of the trap shooting world. How he was going to get the attendance numbers up from the PATHETIC number they have had for YEARS for the "grand"? I would have asked him why the SCTP kids moved to the CC in Ohio. I would have asked him why the ata has to pay for ALL the camper spaces and then rent them out. I would have asked WTF happened to the THOUSANDS of members that QUIT.

    I couldn't care less, no pun intended, what Les winkeler writes. If you are dumb enough to believe the stuff Gipson spoon feeds him that is your problem not mine. I pointed out that apparently winkeler doesn't know squat about ata shooting, read "hunters" in his description, and he is a lousy interviewer.

    The ata screwed the pooch when they moved. Yes, I know, Ohio didn't do anything and it's all their fault that the "grand" is now in that place in IL. and has a PATHETIC attendance. That's just plain stupid but if that is what you believe, or your pals told you to believe, that is another of your problems. gipson comes up with all this PR crap and guys like you take it as gospel.

    You and you pals are stuck with the ata and whatever they do. That's also your problem not mine. If it wasn't you wouldn't get so rabid any time someone points out another screw up by Gipson, T&F, or the hierarchy.

    Let me make this a simple as I can for you and the guy that has the AT watch right now.

    I HOPE THE ata STAYS IN THAT PLACE IN IL. FOREVER. NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COSTS YOU!
    KEEP PAYING YOUR DUES AND FEES AND TELLING EVERYONE HOW GREAT THE ata IS.

    Even though you know that part about how great it is, is a "misprint"


     
  37. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    From your posts telling us what Gipson REALLY said and what winkeler REALLY meant one would get the impression you claim to have such powers.

    Sure wish you would have told us beforehand about the behind the scenes deal to get that building.
     
  38. jhunts

    jhunts Moderator Founding Member

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    https://thesouthern.com/news/local/...cle_be99624a-6a20-575c-a6d9-fdece012f5dd.html

    Winkeler has served as an outdoors writer for The Southern since 1989 and took on the additional role of sports editor 10 years ago. He is known for his sharp, clever writing and for his coverage of the breathtaking beauty of the Southern Illinois region.

    Winkeler, a graduate of SIU’s journalism program, is a longtime member of the Southern Illinois Celebration of National Hunting and Fishing Days Committee, and was inducted in the Sesser-Valier Outdoorsman Club Hall of Fame. His outdoors coverage has earned him numerous awards from the Illinois Press Association and the Associated Press.
     
  39. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    @jhunts

    There is no question in my mind the author failed as a journalist in his reporting of alleged as factual statements made by the ED. He accepted the claims of the ED as facts. The author ignored the warning as to being suspicious of motive.

    Apparently, the following is not taught at SIU:

    https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org/who-we-are/5-principles-of-journalism

    https://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

    Now he could still seek to verify. He has been tipped off the ED’s claims do not pass the smell test.
     
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  40. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    All the bitching, moaning, complaining over the last 4 years this site has been up and 7 years or so since the move has accomplished what?
    Nothing, nada, zilch, zero.
    Carry on fellas.
    Maybe someday.
     
  41. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator

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    101 --You are complaining about bitching? Really? No one here wrote that article. If you are that upset you may want to leave the site or avoid certain threads. I don't want to hear your "bitching"....joe
     
  42. cfandg

    cfandg Active Member

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    I felt insignificant long before I read this thread. I shoot as much now as ever. I am budgeted for x dollars. They can be registered or nonregistered.. . No matter. jmho
     
  43. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    101 I like to think of what you term as bitching as more a warning like that about smoking causing cancer put on cigarettes packaging. We older, much more experienced life ATA members use this site as a warning to any new person who is considering shooting ATA targets.Just like smokers that get cancer, no newbie shooter can't say he wasn't warned. It's up to each person to decide for themselves.

    The fact is though that Gipson is the one who the article used as its source, and the article speaks for itself. There is no way in hell the ATA has 60,000 active members when just 3 years ago they reported 32,000 of which half were Jr's and sub jr's. Those statistics were reported by me on here at the time they were printed in a trap shooting mag. I can't remember what year for sure and I don't have the time to check it out, but for sure it was in an article about ALL AMERICAN's.

    I was an all american many times and the ATA today spends way to much emphases and time on ALL AMERICAN's. They need to focus on the other 97% of their membership. Brad
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2019
  44. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    7 years since the move?

    Must be a typo huh?

    Maybe someday?
    Yeah , maybe someday the ata will get their act together.
     
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  45. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    I think you caught some scent that was most likely missed by 101. Since the author missed it as well; hard to hold 101 completely responsible for his lack of understanding.

    I suspect 101 may not be aware of the two move scenario. The first paragraph from Winkeler misleads in suggesting there was one move only. When a cursory reader gets to the vague final promotional sentence; the inconsistency is not detected.

    “Maybe someday,” a real reporter will pick up the scent and ask the ED some real questions. I would love to see the ED tell the press he has no comment at this time.

    “Maybe someday,” a real EC will tell the ED his services as a media spokesperson and day to day administrator are no longer required. Good business administrators are easy to find. Good media relations folks are a little tougher. :)

    I wonder if the Blagojevich press spokesperson is still available: the one from before his lawyers took over. Speaking of Blagojevich: he was the governor when Illinois was selected for the first move if memory serves.
     
  46. GeorgeinPA

    GeorgeinPA Active Member

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    I still shoot ATA targets. I do that despite the ATA. Not because of it.
     
  47. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    This thread, http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...claims-60-000-worlwide-members-new-math.6056/ ..... has the same thing, only different from a different media format .....

    This ..... https://thesouthern.com/lifestyles/...cle_910c7807-cdb0-515f-869c-ba3b7cc78f6c.html ..... is the on-line version from the other thread .....

    Can a current lie become a the future truth, if a future researcher can find it in enough different places ????????????

    I don't feel this is all being done by bumbling idiots, but more of a organized creation of a false legacy, to cover up the actions of other bumbling idiots .....

    Paying a couple of hundred grand a year is cheap for a puppet to promote enough fake news, to falsify the legacy of the self-serving killers of the ATA for the future History Buffs .....
     
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  48. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    It was disingenuous for Mr. Gipson to report 60,000 members. Readers are led to believe 60,000 people annually shoot registered targets and of course, this is not the case. The actual number of active members reported by the ATA the last few years are:
    2014 - 28,512
    2015 - 31,279
    2016 - 31,974
    2017 - 32,002

    I compiled a listing some years ago regarding ATA Membership statistics. The ATA has always estimated its total membership. In the reporting of total membership, the number was usually about twice the number of active shooters.

    Total membership numbers, even if they were accurate, have little importance in the annual assessment of our organization. Participation statistics are the only reliable sources information.

    In 1989, the ATA reported 111,958 members, of which 54,372 participated in 5,470 registered tournaments, totaling 82,466,800 targets registered.

    In 1994, the ATA reported 102,360 members, of which shot in 54,686 participated in 5,822 registered tournaments, totaling 86,010,975 targets registered.

    The ATA stripped nearly half (47,898 members) (approximately 47%) from the membership rolls in 1995.

    In 1995, the ATA did not report the total number of members but reported 54,462 members participated in 5,571 registered tournaments. It was only 11 months due to change in target year. But they threw 76,699,105 targets.

    In 1996, 54,366 members shot in 5,950 registered tournaments, totaling 80,360,790 registered targets.

    The report format changed in 1997 and for the first time, the ATA provided the number of member gun clubs. With numbers reflecting active members, registered shoots, total targets and actual shooting facilities, ATA members now had enough information to get a fair idea on the true performance of the association.

    In 1997, 53,787 members shot in 6,089 registered tournaments, totaling 81,669,910 targets registered by 1,271 gun clubs.

    I'm not certain what happened after the 2000 target year but the ATA again amended its membership figures, dropping 20,826 members from the active member list in just 1 year. (54,451 down to 33,625)

    In 2000, 54,451 members shot in 6,360 registered tournaments, totaling 85,968,505 targets registered by nearly 1,400 gun clubs.

    In 2001, 33,625 members shot in 6,414 registered tournaments, totaling 84,807,975 targets registered by 1,400 gun clubs.

    Notice the numbers reported for 2017-2017 and compare them with the 1997 target year, the year when the number of gun clubs was included.

    In 2014, 28,512 members shot in 6,252 registered tournaments, totaling 56,552,155 targets registered by 850 gun clubs.

    In 2015, 31,279 members shot in 6,053 registered tournaments, totaling 56,561,801 targets registered by 845 gun clubs.

    In 2016, 31,974 members shot in 6052 registered tournaments, totaling 56,676,545 registered targets by 837 gun clubs.

    In 2017, 32,002 members shot in 5967 registered tournaments, totaling 57,349,000 registered targets by 807 gun clubs.

    The average active membership totaled 30,942. The membership of 60,000, as reported by Mr. Gipson, is 27,998 above the last reported total of 32,002.

    A fair question would be: "Where did those 27,998 members come from? Are most of them non-active life members?" Why is it important for the ATA to report the number of non-participants?

    However, as I've stated in the past, what should be ringing the alarm bell for all, is the trending loss in both membership and gun clubs. Both are major factors in the future of registered trap shooting.

    Unfortunately, I see no indication that our leadership has given much consideration of these losses.

    While the number of registered targets has also declined, ATA leaders have been able to increase their revenue. Now, how do you think they have been able to do that? I can tell you it's not all from sponsorships. Think membership.

    Members of the Executive Committee and Board of Directors (Delegates) are provided with these numbers in both communications, minutes and the annual Average Book. I am hopeful that some day soon, somebody begins working on increasing the number of members and gun clubs, the real foundation of our association.

    Lastly, I believe Mr. Winkler may more knowledgeable about trapshooting that he lets on. He continually aids the narrative of the ATA, ensuring his readers get the idea that all is well. But, most of his readers are fully aware that the WSR Complex is not being used as projected by the ATA, IDNR, State of IL and both State and Local politicians.

    Additionally, I've been informed that Mr. Les Winkler has been provided with factual information on inaccurate claims made by the ATA but heretofore seems to be dropping them in the circular file. He would be wise to start asking for verification when quoting ATA officials. Integrity matters.

    HB
     
  49. Sr.

    Sr. Member

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    Pre 1995 50% of the members were active. Assuming that is the same today, 60,000 total members is probably correct.
     
  50. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Only an ass will assume and think it correct.
     
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  51. frostyman

    frostyman Active Member

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    Just remember his name is Gipson, not Gibson.
     
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  52. harryone

    harryone Moderator

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    Tomato-Tomotto
    2012Pull-Pull2012
    30,000 entries-60,000 entries
    15,000 camping in campgrounds
    15,000 in motels
    Got this going in a fantastic direction
    60,000 members
    We have to move
    We can make up the membership loss
    50 million in the economy every year

    Yeah.....get it right. The ATA has raised the bar don't you think?
     
  53. Garry

    Garry Mega Poster

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    In 2001, 33,625 members shot in 6,414 registered tournaments, totaling 84,807,975 targets registered by 1,400 gun clubs.

    In 2017, 32,002 members shot in 5967 registered tournaments, totaling 57,349,000 registered targets by 807 gun clubs.

    The above numbers represent 32.3 percent fewer ATA targets thrown and a 42.2 percent loss of gun clubs.

    What a fantastic accomplishment!!!! The delegates, the EC and the ED should be very proud - NOT.



     
  54. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    BEFORE:
    Where are you shooting Sunday?
    Haven't decided yet. There are three clubs shooting Sunday, all less then an hours drive. One of them is throwing both Saturday and Sunday.
    We could shoot the sixteens Saturday at the one then the caps and doubles at the other the next day?
    Sounds good to me, I know Bill wants to get two hundred in. His plan is to shoot his ten thousandth for the year at the Grand at Vandalia. I'll call the other three guys and tell them that is where the squad is going. Around 9 o'clock should do it.
    Man, I hate when there are three or four clubs all throwing the same day. They should get together and figure out some kind of schedule. They would get more shooters in one place if they did that.
    Yeah right, but there are so many registering targets that they have to overlap. At least the four clubs with eight traps space out their big two or three day shoots.
    I guess. How many sixteens are you going to end up with for the year?
    Probably around the same. Between Forty five and Five thousand before the Grand. Been doing that since I started so I might as well keep it up. I wish I had more time, I would like to shoot six or seven thousand.
    Same with me. Probably end up with around the same number.

    NOW:
    Any clubs throwing registered this weekend?
    Not that I know of. I think there might be ONE but they don't throw like they used to. You should probably call Thursday or Friday and check. All the others we used to go to quit registered targets because they couldn't get anyone to show up.
    You going to go if they are throwing?
    Nope, never re-upped with the ata. I'm going to keep shooting Annies twice a week, and probably rejoin the Sporting Clays outfit for next year. Hell, I see more guys I recognize when I go to those shoots than at any of our Trap clubs.
    I know a lot of the guys got older or even passed away but you would think there would be SOME new blood shooting registered. Not the case man, we went to the western zone for PA years ago and didn't even sign up. There were six people there when we got there and six when we left. I think they ended up with five squads. Five squads, are you kidding me?
    Ok, brother, I'll talk to you later. By the way, what nights do you guys shoot Annies? I think I can get four or five more guys to show up. They all quit registered too.
     
  55. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Or a "typo"
     
  56. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    Thanks once again HB for presenting the FACTS to us the curious readers.

    We all appreciate your work for us to uncover the covers.

    I just looked at the ATA Website for SEVERAL of my friends and acquaintances that are either deceased OR no longer members of the ATA for several years, and I could not believe how many who have passed away are still on the rolls.

    Can anyone tell me if all of these people are still counted as members on the Current rolls ?

    Interesting, try for yourself by looking up some deceased or FORMER members.

    Go to the SHOOTATA.COM we site and then click on MY ATA and then at the upper left corner click SHOOTER INFORMATION CENTER and then put in a last name.

    See for yourself how many deceased or no longer member friends you find.
     
  57. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Flyersarebest, I can attest to everything you wrote about the old days, in fact when I moved from Ohio to Maryland I was kind of taken back by the way they set their ATA dates back then in 1985. There was only one registered shoot allowed in the state on any weekend, clubs bid on them I guess. It worked out very well. I could go to Delaware or Pa if I didn't want to shoot at whatever club was shooting that weekend. I think all the shoots were Saturday and Sunday affairs except the holiday shoots were longer. Maryland had better weekend shoots than we did in Ohio but in 1985 you might have 10 Ohio clubs shooting ATA on the same day.

    Brad's friend (I hope) Kenny is the man, everything you say is true and you to Garry. Numbers don't lie.
     
  58. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Sure did. They took the pizza and split it into many pieces so everyone got a tiny piece. Soon, instead of one club getting 50 squads 10 clubs got 5 squads each. It didn't take long for club managers to realize it didn't pay to run ATA shoots. Quite frankly, you're there most of the day and paying help running a shoot that's barely profitable. Let's not talk about all those silly mini-grands and various (let's pick a meaningless name shoots) that sucked the small feeder ATA clubs dry. Unfortunately, it's too late for a solution.
     
  59. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Sr.,

    That's a mighty big assumption. Personally, I find the number 60,000 members to be high enough to cast doubt in my mind. Unfortunately, I assume neither of us are in a position to confirm the total ATA membership and the ATA has not provided details (to my knowledge) explaining just who those additional 28,000 shooters might be. In making my own assumption, they are likely a mix of life members who don't shoot; those who paid for an annual membership but did not participate in one registered shoot and a small number of gifted memberships to folks who did not shoot last year.

    Now, using your hypothesis that "50% of the members were active" therefore "60,000 total members is probably correct" would you also trust the ATA's 1989 figures? The ATA reported 111,958 members of which 54,372 were actively participating in at least 1 registered event.

    You do realize that the leaves 57,586 members, a number larger than the active membership total, who did not participate. I have trouble reconciling that a sport shooting association would have a higher number of non-participating members than active members.

    Admittedly, I could be wrong but until some one shows some details, it just seems highly unlikely the total membership numbers are accurate.

    I don't know if many readers are aware, but 60,000 was the ATA's total membership reported in 1971.

    I find it shocking that 47 years later, the ATA total membership is reported to be 60,000.

    It appears the mission of encouraging and promoting our sport has been difficult.

    HB
     
  60. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Thanks HB

    n1h1 should be along any time now to straighten all this out with a graph.
     
  61. fortycaliberglock

    fortycaliberglock Active Member

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    The number of people shooting ATA has declined over the years. That is obvious. But, it seems to be holding steady more recently at around 30,000. Not bad. There are a lot of entertainment and sporting choices out there. I can tell you why more people don't shoot ATA tournaments. It has nothing to do with the bizarre ways money is divvied-up or target angles, or the Byzantine ATA rules. It's because ATA tournaments are long and boring. I can stand it for a day, but its a looooong day. I can only sit around BS-ing for so long before, after and between shooting. I couldn't imagine spending an entire weekend or 10 days. Shoot me, please. I do like shooting tournaments though. For example, I attend some double gun shoots. I don't mind at all because they are lots of fun. You shoot clays, eat, drink (after guns are away), smoke, get dressed up, go to a banquet, do something fun at night in a fun location, tents full of interesting vendors, different collectors associations all coming together, challenging each other. When I shoot an ATA tournament, other than the shooting itself (which, lets face it isn't exactly a thrill over 200 rounds), it's just dull. And everything takes so, so, so, long. It feels like an eternity by the time the trophies are handed out. Hour after dreadfully boring hour watching people shoot trap. It's like watching paint dry. At least with clays I can walk around to watch other shooters on lots of different stations, shoot side events, shoot on the practice 5-stand. The times, they are a changing. If the sport of trap shooting doesn't change to make it's signature events more entertaining, it will continue it's long, slow fade into irrelevance.
     
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  62. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    You are wrong.
     
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  63. Robert Zimmerman

    Robert Zimmerman Active Member Founding Member

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    Look at the small clubs in northwest Ohio on sunday meat shoots they are getting so big they are have a hard time finishing by evening On 2 traps. Meat shoots are growing very fast lots of new shooters.
     
  64. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Verification for those who may have doubted my above statement:

    HB


    MEMBERSHIP IN 1971.jpg
     
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  65. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The ATA has app.30,000 active members. Not a difficult calculation. Simply multiply the number of participating members at 115 per page in the annual averages book. There ya have it.
     
  66. Gerald

    Gerald Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I knew Hugh McKinley fairly well back in the 70s .I always found him to be an Honorable person although some shooters at the time referred to him as somewhat a B.S.r.
    If those figures would exist today it would indicate to me the ATA has a large non-shooting membership.
     
  67. jbailey

    jbailey Active Member

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    Well Brad, that's your opinion and you know what they say about opinions. The growth of Sporting Clays can't be explained away by blaming the ATA for moving to Sparta and changing the target angles. They are shooting sporting because it is more fun.
     
  68. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    The Illinois “Constitution” gives the deceased the “right” to be counted as registered voters. I think the ED is just altering the same concept for promotional purposes. :)

    I saw somewhere a time back the NSSA was able to distinguish between membership total and participating membership by year. I understand the figures are published in their magazine each year. I bet the ED has those figures. They are just not compatible with his “fantastic direction” promotional tale. Therefore, they are maintained in the “need to know” file instead of being released. Participating member numbers would provide a more accurate picture of the state of the organization.
     
  69. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    jbailey,
    That is just not Brad's opinion, it is the opinion of many shooters that moved to Sporting Clays. The miss management of the registered shooting venue is the biggest reason for the reduction of the average Joe shooter's. Easier targets are not what the shooters welcomed. The morphing of the all American teams to resemble the little league where every player gets a trophy, and setting the sport up to favor the people that can travel and camp to qualify for the teams as the members are now picked, has locked out many of the best shooters in the game.
    The ATA leaders are following the theory that if a lie is repeated enough times, even the perpetrators start to believe it as the truth. The move to Sparta was not the only factor that made many shooters lose faith in the ATA leadership. The fact that a large majority of members voted against the move. The EC took a vote and then did just what the poll said not to do.
    It appears that the association has cross the point of no return. Maybe with a complete change in members of the EC and many of the BOD, there is a chance to revive the sport. The members must be recognized as partners if the ATA is to ever be a respected organization again. The chain of command must be changed for it's survival. sad but very true.
    Roger C.
     
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  70. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    jbailey, I was with Beretta when we built one of the first sporting clay ranges in the US in 1984 or so in Maryland. In 1995 I built and ran a sporting clay's range on my hunting preserve for 10 years before I closed it. Thorn Bottom was one of the first ranges in Northwest Ohio and in fact Ohio. So I am very aware of Sporting Clays.

    Sporting Clays has been around since the 1920's but was called a different name, I think Hunter's Clays but the historybuff can give the facts about that and fill us in on their history and how trap shooting history co exist.

    In the beginning Sporting Clays had a quail walk, you also had a station that you sat in a boat that was rocked at some clubs, and ALWAYS shot with a low gun. The Skeet Association, with Mike Hampton at the helm saw that the only way to save themselves was organize Sporting Clays which they did. In fact there was another Sporting Clays Association first, headed by a Dr. Davis if I remember right. But Hampton, much like he did with the ATA and Sparta later, was able to corrupt the Sport of Sporting and the rest is history.

    The rules that the Skeeters wanted made sporting easier, they did it under the Safety issue, but really because it was too hard for the skeeters and trap shooters that were attracted to registered Sporting Clays. Because Skeet shooters had prizes for everyone Hampton did it for the Sporting Clays, Mater Classes, and such. Ribbons for all, and when he took over the ATA at Sparta that is when the All American Points and ribbons shit really took hold and destroyed the ATA as it was.

    The only shotgunning sport in the US that has gotten harder is live bird shooting. Traps and ring sizes, length of events are some reasons and yes I did have a pigeon ring also at my club.

    Non registered practice sporting clays is where the growth was, sporting isn't growing today it peaked a few years back, ask the industry if you don't believe me.

    A lot at hunting clubs have sporting ranges or a trap of some sort so there hunters can practice up before hunting. I did for the first years but today just do the pheasants and this is my 23rd year. In fact one year Thorn Bottom threw over 200,000 sporting targets but the money I made back for that was pitiful, about 10 grand that year so I stopped.

    Roger pretty much hit the nail on the head about organized ATA, Hunting and Shotgunning in general have declined a lot in my life time but what the ATA did with the rules have not helped at all. The success of the small clubs in my neighborhood that have no ATA affiliation should prove that. These shoots have younger crowds and shooters shooting for fun, and meat.

    This is why I said "you are wrong", the long answer. Brad
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2019
  71. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Fact checking Mr. Dysinger & his memory:

    CLAY SHOOTING USA Interview of Phil Murray

    In 1984 Phil Murray went to work for Beretta – as Club Manager at Prince Georges County Gun Club and the company’s Shooting Promotions Manager. “During those years I really built up my shooter’s knowledge, learning how to run a gun club and learning more about handling people well. That was also the year that the gun club (Beretta leased the club during those years) built the first sporting clays course. It was still called ‘hunter’s clays’ back then. Beretta also put in a full International Trap layout. I think it was the first one in the eastern USA.

    QUAIL WALK from a course back in 1952.
    FIELDALE FARMS SPORTING CLAYS,1952-OCT21.jpg

    Rules from the 1988-1989 United States Sporting Clays Association:

    GUN MOUNT.jpg

    Officers & Staff of the United States Sporting Clays Association. USSCA President Bob L. Davis of Houston, TX. And notice who was a Chief Shooting Instructor and Instructor Certification Committee member. None other that the well-known Dan Carlisle.

    OFFICERS & Staff.jpg

    Sadly, clay target sports have all suffered rule changes that reduced the difficulty. Many believe removing the element of "chance" has not been in the best interests of the clay target games. The early rules attempted to simulate shooting in the field and shooters who failed to load a shell were awarded a "lost target" shortly after their call of "Pull!"

    The original Sporting Clays rules, like early trap shooting, did not allow malfunctions.

    NO MALFUNCTIONS.jpg

    Today's Sporting Clays rules permit both gun and ammunition malfunctions.

    H. MALFUNCTIONS The shooter shall be allowed a combined total of three (3) malfunctions per day, per event attributed to either the shooter's gun or ammunition. Targets not attempted on the three (3) allowed malfunctions shall be treated as NO BIRDS. Targets not attempted due to the fourth or later malfunctions shall be scored as LOST.

    I like Sporting Clays. I've always shot with low gun. I helped build a course at our club back in 1990. And I was a proud member of the first Association (USSCA) before it was pushed out of existence. So, I know a little about the history, though admittedly not an expert.

    MEMBERSHIP CARD-HistoryBuff.jpg

    Mr. Dysinger, you do know a bit about Sporting Clays and I find your statements (even those from memory) to be factual.

    HB
     
  72. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster

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    Very interesting bit of info.

    I literally lived within a few miles of Beretta P.G. Shooting Center back then. Did not care for those automatic traps that they had.
    Had to wipe the dust off this trophy dated 1986.
    DSCN3671.JPG
     
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  73. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    thanks historybuff, you the man.
     
  74. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    We need to leave Ol' Gipson alone folks.

    He provides a LOT of laughs for us.
     
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  75. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I knew Hugh McKinley very well, he lived near Darbydale, and there was 2 STEEL Traps on his property, that we shot a special Live Pigeon buddy shoot, He removed his items from the Hall of Fame, because the ATA pissed him off, he told me he was going to remove them at the last time I saw him at Vandalia. He made a lot of things happen in the OSTA, he was a real gentleman, and he and I shared a lot of information before his passing.

    GB.................................DLS
     
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