Dysinger 2013 article, graph, facts and predictions come true

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum' started by BRAD DYSINGER, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Here is an article I previously wrote. I even had a graph on there for Neil's enjoyment. Please read what I wrote and tell me where I was wrong.


    I‘ve always thought of myself as a clever writer, able to turn some phrase, state some fact or tell some antidote that would grab the reader’s attention and bring him into the story that I was wanting to tell. Unfortunately, what I want to share with you, the trap shooters, isn’t funny or clever. The fact is, it’s sad and depressing but it is important to discuss if organized, registered trapshooting is going to continue to survive.
    Statistics can be used to prove either side of an argument, but in the end one side is wrong and one is right. In the end, facts don’t lie. Since the ATA’s announcement that it intended to leave Vandalia, Ohio for another location, that topic has dominated the discussions other places and what the fate of the Grand and the ATA would be. What the fate of registered trapshooting would be.

    Location, location, location was the topic, whether Amarillo or Indiana or Las Vegas or in the end, Sparta. Reasons pro and con for each location were championed and rebutted. Wild opinions were represented as truths without any statistics backing them up, and then flung about as inevitable facts to come. It should be clear to even the most adamant Sparta supporters that the glowing proclamations and promises made on the joys of moving to Illinois haven’t worked out as advertised. Build it and they will come hasn’t proven so.

    Below is a chart of Grand American Attendance Demographics by zone from 2001 to 2012. When you are looking at it, remember the last full Grand in Vandalia was 2004. The 2005 Grand was the one that some trap fields had been removed and shooters were told they had to qualify to shoot. The 2006 Grand was the first in Sparta.

    wp5bbb53ed_06.png

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    Long time viewers should remember how shooters from points east said “don’t move the Grand to Illinois because we won’t go, it’s too far, and it is anti-gun”. They weren’t lying. The Eastern Zone attendance is down 77% from the last full Grand in Vandalia in 2004 and down 49% from the first Grand held in Sparta in 2006. The ‘build it and they will come’ crowd couldn’t have been more mistaken. It hasn’t happened. A look at the chart will show you that. It is the same story for every zone, lower shooter attendance. From 2004 to 2012 Grand Attendance down: Eastern Zone - 77%, Central Zone - 57%, Southern Zone - 61%, Southwestern Zone – 7%, Western Zone - 54%.

    Even the Grand’s held at Sparta are down in every zone from the first one in 2006 to this year in 2012: Eastern Zone - 49%, Central Zone - 45%, Southern Zone - 56%, Southwestern Zone - 38%, Western Zone - 52%. The 2012 Grand American was down 57% from the last full Vandalia Grand American and this year’s shoot was down 47% from the first Sparta Grand of 2006. This is in spite of the new categories and hundreds of trophies. Even the overly generous amounts of money given by the Martin family for the past three years has not had an influence on attendance. Location is the key. If trap shooters don’t want to go someplace, they don’t. The real legacy of the Grand’s move to Illinois is unfortunately in what it has done to registered trap-shooting as a whole.

    All concerned ATA shooters should check out the Trap and Field Average Book Target Participation page. In 2006, the number of registered ATA targets shot was 79,208,961. By 2011, the number had dropped to 61,562,330. A 33% drop since the Grand’s move to Sparta. I didn’t take the time to figure by zones but I have compared some states from 2006 to 2011. Ohio -32%, Michigan - 36%, Pennsylvania - 28%, New York - 24%, Missouri - 24%, Kentucky - 14%, California - 38% and Illinois - 10%.

    The only states having shot more targets were mostly not states at all; they were Arkansas, Alaska, the Atlantic Provinces, British Columbia, Manitoba, Quebec and foreign countries. These are targets shot by that states’ residents, not targets shot in that state. The three large Cardinal shoots don’t count for or against Ohio and the Grand doesn’t count either way for Illinois.

    Target shot stats give a glimpse of the health, or lack of it, of registered shooting state by state and year to year. The economy would seem to be a factor, except for the fact that the firearm industry has enjoyed 40 plus months of its largest growth in history. While the economy has indeed been bad, the gun business has never been better. The number of hunters is up, the number of new gun owners is up, and the number of women gun owners is up. In every survey conducted it shows that these new gun owners are interested in target shooting or learning about target shooting games.

    As trap shooters we each have a story about how we got started, who it was that introduced us to trap. Generally for the most part before we started shooting ATA all of us already had an interest in guns; we were hunters, plinkers, and backyard clay bird busters. Why should it be different today? Times may have changed, but not that much. Gun people are gun people and a gun is the most essential item needed to shoot trap. With so many more gun owners, hunters, and better press than ever, why is registered trapshooting dying? It isn’t the economy.

    For the past seven years the ATA Executive Committee has been obsessed with proving Sparta the right choice, so much so that they have neglected the sport and future of trapshooting. All their energies and decisions have gone in that direction. They have wasted the most part of a decade trying to keep the 20,000 active registered shooters shooting at the Grand American, and ignored why the ATA has lost so many members over that time and failed to attract new ones. Youth shooters have been viewed as a money resource, a way to pump up the Grand’s numbers.

    The EC’s last year-and-a-half shows just how out of touch and desperate it is, wholesale yardage reductions, new categories, wanting even a softer target. This is the doubling down of the fool heartiness, feel good, and make everyone a winner attitude that caused the decline of registered shooting in the first place. Making the sport easier so everyone could break good scores, so every shooter could feel special and be a winner has cheapened the sport and set the ATA on the path that registered shooting now finds itself.

    Registered shooting was from its founding about competition and money shooting. If everyone is a winner and there are no losers, how special can winning be? The whole idea of being special is to be something unique, not average. If everyone is special then no one is. Without losing, what is the thrill of winning? What can be enjoyed? In making every shooter a special winner we have instead become common losers. Not unique at all, just registered practice shooters.

    If registered ATA shooting doesn’t return back to its historic roots the declines we see in registered shooting will continue. Unfortunately, the group running the ATA today doesn’t know how to fix the problem, doesn’t see a problem, or don’t care and won’t admit to a problem; they appear content to keep throwing stuff at the wall, hoping something will stick.

    Registered trapshooting has lost its soul. If the ATA was a stock, would you invest your retirement and your grandkid’s future in it? The future of every trap shooter who loves registered trapshooting is right there in black and white, in the numbers. Can registered trapshooting be saved? It’s sad, but I don’t think so? If it is to be saved, right now, right today, I can’t see where it’s coming from and how it will happen. Brad Dysinger
     
  2. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Graphs don't lie
     
  3. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    "Can registered trapshooting be saved?" ..... maybe ..... Can the "ATA" be saved ????? ..... NO .....

    If getting rid of the 18 yard-line handicap is the best one year progress the ATA can do to change the downward spiral, kiss it good-bye and move on .....

    That was well written 5 years ago, but other than being right and being able to say I told you so, it didn't seem to wake anyone up ..... At this point, any I told you so just slows down moving forward with something that we all may live long enough to enjoy ..... Thanks for taking the time to write it and for posting it now, but the current ATA leadership seems more than ready to ride the the downward spiral to the very bottom .....

    A Hedge-Fund to help a few with their shooting expenses is not what the founders of the ATA had in mind, but now it is what it is .....

    We agree on what has happened ..... We just need to agree on what can happen ..... Before those who care enough to do something move on or pass on .....
     
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  4. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    There are many reason why there are less trapshooters and less ATA trapshooters than there were during the peak years. The BOD, EC and the ED are not the only reason and might not even be the biggest reason for this decline. It would be very interesting to graph the drastic decline in the total number of small game hunting licenses sold during the last 15-20 years compared to the number of ATA targets thrown during those same years.
     
  5. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    You can look here ..... https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm ..... and get the numbers from 1958 to 2017 ..... but, I don't think you are going to find the "drastic decline" you are looking for .....
     
  6. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Well User 1 I know one thing that won't help is by Martin's money propping up Sparta. I found this article in my archives and remembered the research I had put into it then. I thought it would be good to remind everyone what the history of how we got the ATA we have today happened. With the other thread on the Martin's enabling the EC I thought I'd use what I said back then to bolster my theory on the Martin's money and the good or harm it does.

    The fact in the article that everyone should focus on is the target numbers for the states. A 33% drop in 5 years, I don't care what it is today but I sure as hell bet it hasn't gone up. How any shooter with a brain bigger than hunter44 can say that it isn't the EC and the move to Sparta that IS the reason I can't imagine. Facts have a way of killing hope. Brad
     
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  7. Bobby

    Bobby Member

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    Brad, I agree with you but can we agree that in addition to the issues you quote and back up with facts and figures, the high cost of shooting and high gas prices, food, motels etc. were and continue to be a factor? I live in Central Illinois and my checkbook tells me more than anything that I can no longer shoot.
     
  8. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    An IQ of 44!
    That says it all right there.

    If it wasn't for this site he wouldn't have any reason to own a computer. This guy can't say anything about his own shooting accomplishments. He doesn't have any. But, let one of the other 4 stooges that take swipes at this site and its members post something and he chirps right in.

    Pretty much just a follower and mouthpiece.
     
  9. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I started shooting during the gas crisis of 1974, shot through the Carter years, and then there aftermath when we had 20% interest and inflation. Trap shooting not only survived but I could afford to do it. I could afford it for one reason back then if I shot reasonable well I could win enough money to break even and maybe make some money.

    When the ATA softened the birds and took all the money out of registered trap shooting it killed the average Joe shooter. The ATA at Sparta is a camping organization of snobby people who own guns. Like the Democrats who used to be for the workers the ATA has been taken over by the skeet shooter mentality of ribbon shooting. Just read Gibson's report on here on another thread. Brad
     
  10. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    "When the ATA softened the birds and took all the money out of registered trap shooting it killed the average Joe shooter."

    I didn't leave the ata, the ata left ME!

    And for you lurkers? if you never experienced the days when a score of 97 could pay for MONTHS of "registered" shooting don't pretend you know what you are talking about.

    You don't have a clue but please don't stop posting that " I love the ata, they're just perfect" crap.
    It only reinforces the above statement.

    You lemmings should stick with,
    7-1/2's or 8's?
    what kind of shoes do you where?
    Anyone know an arrogant garage gunsmith in MI that believes his own bullshit?
    Which side should I put the speaker on?
    Can I get handicap lessons from a mediocre shooter on the 20 yard line?
    How do I get good at traps

    I'm waiting to hear this one
    I'm a one eyed shooter, which eye should I close?

    Ya gotta laugh at them!

     
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  11. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the links User 1.

    As a sample, I picked some states in the Central Zone because it was N1H1 who said a new shooter base would need to be built in central Midwest that will attract new shooters to the Grand in Sparta. Here are the numbers based on the total number of hunting licenses sold for these states.

    Illinois - 1958 - 512,860 licenses sold. 2017 - 341,135 licenses sold. A decrease of 289,875 or 57 percent.

    Iowa - 1958 - 343, 825 hunting licenses sold. 2017 - 221,231 licenses sold. A decrease of 122,594 or 36 percent.

    Indiana - 1958 - 664,251 licenses sold. 2017 - 273,887 licenses sold. A decrease of 390,364 or 59 percent.

    Ohio - 1958 - 692,539 licenses sold. 2017 - 394,598 licenses sold. A decrease of 297,941 or 43 percent.

    Michigan - 1958 - 916,674 licenses sold. 2017 - 714,850 licenses sold. A decrease of 201,824 or 22 percent.
     
  12. Bobby

    Bobby Member

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    Yo Brad, true enough on all you said here. People, me included can find a way to shoot during tough economic times and the truest of all the true and sincere things in any of your posts is the ATA abandoning the average shooter. I know many of my shooting buddies stopped almost entirely when shot went to $51 a bag, and when mid 90's and beyond I was paying $11 a bag. Primers (Cheddites) went from $75 a sleeve of 5000 and powder (Solo 1000 my favorite) from $8 a pound to over $20 a pound. Shells jumped 50%+ before the days of the Challengers, Estates, etc. And in all candor Brad, the sport not only lost when average shooters felt ignored and unimportant, it lost too when you walked away. I will always cherish the days at the Illinois State Shoot when I was fortunate enough for you, Leo and Louie to let me shoot in your handicap squad......
     
  13. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Garry 1958 is a long way from 2002 to today. Check out the grand attendance in 1958. As small game hunting decreases clay target shooting increases (a man with a shotgun needs to shoot at something) Sporting Clays never came along until the 80's . Garry I think you are reaching pretty far to justify your position. SPARTA and ILLINOIS are the reason for trap shooting's decline.

    Every state you mentioned except Michigan had little to no deer hunting in 1958, and none of these states to my knowledge had any turkey hunting. When you talk small game and hunting to me that is the one thing I know more about than trap shooting. All those states you mention today have NO pheasant hunting, quail hunting, or rabbit hunting compared to 1958. No small game means no small game hunters not no gun owners or hunting.

    Every state you mention also takes in more Pittman Robinson money today than 1958. Why don't you look at South Dakota today compared to 1958. Hunters travel to where the birds are, trap shooters traveled to where the money was. Like the states you mention that lost all their small game the ATA lost their money shooters when they killed the sport.

    Every state you mentioned will never get their wild pheasants back, farming is the main reason, but Pheasants Forever, like the Martins, have thrown millions of dollars in many states at the hope that it would happen. I've been a member of ALL the game savors organisations at one time or other like DU, Pheasants Forever, The Turkey Federation, ect, and with all of them once the 2nd and third generations take over it goes to shit. Same as the ATA and EC's. Just fact.

    I will say though that hunting has lost about 2 million hunters in just the last 5 years, but my article was written before that. Historically hunting numbers and target shooters have little direct comparisons, most hunters never have shot a trap shoot and most trap shooters today wouldn't know a hen from a rooster. Brad
     
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  14. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    I can see that the "Martin's money" has not helped, and will not help anything in the future other than "propping up Sparta" ..... And, I have no idea why they would throw away any more money in the future, after seeing the past failure ..... People throwing their personal wealth into something so far off track is not something I have any control over .....

    After several years of this site posting things like the wrongly given gun gifts, PULL 2012 deals, and so on, it as had not had the effect it should have ..... So, we can continue down the I told you so path, or see if there is enough interest to invest time into something else .....

    Being able to vent and tell what a person has personal knowledge of, has been a way to spend several years of cyber-time, but a person has to ask at some point ..... to what end ????????
     
  15. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I do it to piss off the Jack Asses that stole my sport that I love and to set history straight. If I can enlighten just one kool aid drinker to reality good. Giving up was not what made me an All American or got me to the HOF. All my life people have told me you can't do that, and all my life I have said well just watch.

    The thing is I never know who is watching, lurking, and what fact will make it click in their head. Facts and history are a deadly left and right punch to hope and bull shit. If the Martins' want to throw away their money good for them, but when you change the rules to PUT them in the HOF it cheapens that too and that does piss me off. That HOF used to have a set number of years you had to shoot before being considered, not a set amount of money donated to the EC. Brad
     
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  16. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Brad, I agree with oleolliedawg, hunting small game is long gone so no need for those hunters to get out and practice.
     
  17. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    That reminds me of what someone told me long ago about Trapshooting ..... They said, "If you go to a shoot and shoot targets only or just the Lewis Class, you have already told yourself you are going to lose" ......

    People tend to learn the same way throughout life ..... until they burn themselves on the hot stove, all the words of wisdom mean little to nothing .....

    I feel as sad as anyone else that the "glory days" that were spent with my father and one uncle that are now both gone, and many friends, are not only gone, but will not be the same for others after me, because some self-serving people were allowed to destroy what once was .....

    Keeping History accurate and fresh in people's minds is a noble gesture, and learning it is something everyone needs to do ..... What we do as a result of it is the only thing we can currently control .....
     
  18. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Brad, I mean no disrespect, but when you were making enough money to break even or better, what percent of the ATA shooters would you guess did not make enough money to break even?
     
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  19. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Garry I would think that at the best there were under 50 shooters winning enough money shooting to make a living out of it. The thing was that just about all those also had some other kind of income somewhat related to shooting or hunting selling something. Back in the day just a couple of guys were giving lessons a lot. Kay did, Frank did, and others of us occasionally did, but we mostly shot the big shoots for the coin.

    Now right under that bunch were a couple of hundred others that shot well enough to make a lot of money but had good jobs somewhere else. I'm thinking Roger Smith and N.E. McCorkel among others as examples. Bill Lawless also made money shooting but had a very good real job. Most of the good Pigeon shooters did something else too.

    Then there were a good group of I call them club shooters all over the country that would at least win as much as the entree fees were and get to shoot free most of the time. I talked to Dave Berlet today and he told me he figures he spent 5 grand at Sparta this year without playing any money and had no chance to win a dime so he knew he was loosing 5K for sure. That is a hard thing to justify for a working JOE, 5 grand will go a long way towards a vacation. A person couldn't put 5K in a slot machine and not win something back, only Sparta.

    If you just want to shoot trap practice it is a lot cheaper to shoot the small clubs. Tomorrow at Cloverdale, Ohio $18 plus shells will give you 50 trap targets and a 50% chance to win some meat. Plus to shots at the draw pot. No ribbons or AA points though. Brad
     
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  20. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    So, if I have this right, 14 years ago there were a lot more shooters at the Grand. Right? There's a whole lot of stuff that's different than it was 14 years ago. Let's say, just hypothetically, we move the whole thing back to Ohio (gotta be here, right?), same size of facility, we put the target settings back to what they were in the glory days, get all new officers, get rid of sub vet, junior gold and any other category not in existence back in the day, start all new shooters and hcp at the 20 yd line. Anything else? (guess we could allow people to sleep in their cars in the parking lot) Do you think that would do it? Would the numbers skyrocket? Would trap go back to what you so fondly remember from 40 years ago, 30 years, 20 even?
     
  21. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    I don't think you will be able to fix trap shooting instantly fast, it was a lot easier to screw it up than it will be to fix it up. Although the SCTP shoot here in Ohio did have a 10% increase this year, there is nothing at a higher level for those kids to shoot for.

    Everything is around the margins. Fix the targets first. Fix the program. Change the ribbon culture. The average ATA trap shooter lasts about 3 to 5 years so in a few years, yes in the 14 years you mention it is possible to bring it back. Give the SCTP youngsters something to shoot for. We already know they like to shoot but most can't afford it after someone else stops paying the bill. Put the competition back in trap shooting and you will go a long way to keeping a percentage of them. Harder targets mean better payoffs, mean more average Joes' have a chance.

    Hell video gamers make thousands of dollars at tournaments today, poker players millions, trap shooters pennies. All I know is what the ATA is doing today sure as hell don't work. I guess it's fine if you want and old man dominated quilting bee, but that's not what trap shooting was founded on.

    The way the ATA is going most of its' members will be dead in another 14 years. I guess time will tell, it's just too bad so many of the ATA Sparta sheep won't be around to see it and the ones left will just have those fond memories you mention. I am glad I lived to see the hay day of trap shooting, I feel bad for those who didn't.

    Daro Handy once told me him and I were the last Buffalo hunters. We were setting at the shoot offs at Vandalia when he said it. I'm happy I at least saw the Buffalo, sad to say many don't even know what a Buffalo is. Brad
     
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  22. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    The questions is with all the decline why does the ATA seem to be doing well financially? $17 million in net assets is not a little amount of money and it increased by $1 million from 2016 to 2017.
    Is it the higher shooting fees making up for the lost shooters....making it more a rich man game now? I confess I spent about $5,000 at the last Grand (shot mainly Grand week), but I was not looking to win anything, I was just looking to have fun. I spend about $12,000 a year on trap because I can afford it. Not many can afford that sort of money. If the poorer people wanted to win money to be able to afford to shoot that kind of money is not there today.
     
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  23. STaT mAn STaN

    STaT mAn STaN Active Member

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    The same people that gave you that data also doubled the number of shooters at the grand and published them. Then forced to do a retraction by this forum.

    The same people that gave you that data said "there are 15,000 competitors in the campground (prelims) and another 15,000 in the local motels."

    What is in a number? What number?
     
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  24. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Brad, I agree.

    The EC and ED are way in over their heads but unwilling to admit it. They don't have a clue on how to stop the bleeding and put the ATA on the road to recovery. But Pipe Layer tells us they talk about it when ever the EC meets. And the ED is recommending more social time with finger food and drinks for a couple of days during the preliminary Grand American week.

    I am sure the social hours with finger food and drinks will stop the bleeding and result in a substantial increase in attendance at the Grand American - Not! They should be ashamed and embarrassed, the members deserve better, much better.

    Garry
     
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  25. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    Well, we asked for figures and this is the answer we got for our "NEED to KNOW" question !
     
  26. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Doesn't anyone else get tired of the incessant bashing of the move to Sparta, the ATA itself, the state of trapshooting as it is today? Complaint after complaint, whine after whine, ridicule and more ridicule. But you know what I don't see? Viable solutions. The ATA is NOT going back to what it was in the 1970s, Vandalia is dead and gone and means nothing to the groups of shooters who will be tasked to save this organization or salute its demise. What needs to done? When and by whom? If you think the SCTP kids with mom and dad's money are the future, you're in for a rude awakening. As soon as they have to pay their own way they'll run back to Xbox. Fire the ED, fire the EC, clean house........and then what? I'm 71yrs old and didn't shoot my first trap target until I was 64 - none of the whining really resonates with me because I can't relate to something that's been dead for years, that people just can't get over. But I like to shoot and see it as recreation, not a form of identity. One of the things that befuddles me is all the complaining I see is coming from the older shooters, the ones who've been in this sport for decades. I'll ask you this, since you were the lifeblood of the ATA, how the hell, and more importantly why the hell did you let it get like this? Yes, you. You guys did it, you were there, it was your responsibility to stop this train before it ran away. You didn't.
     
  27. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Appropriate that you should post this on Sunday. Thank you for the sermon.

    Since you are new to the once great game let me be the first to tell you that
    we didn't let anything "happen"

    Come down from the pulpit and do a little research on the questionnaire that was sent out years before you started.
     
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  28. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    NOPE...biggest comedy of errors by a corporation that still has the same people in charge.
    Yep....you are right. You don't have a clue. You have never seen the org ran well. You cant relate due to your ignorance. The ignorance is yours. Not the members here.
    Yep....again Columbus. You don't have a clue. You wouldn't know a well ran trap org cause you never saw one.
    And that is on me. I let it get this way. I trusted the people at the top. Most here no longer do that. And if you don't like our distrust by some at the top I suggest you find another forum or thread.

    Columbus....I agree with the theme of your post. You don't know crap. Never did.
     
  29. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    It doesn't matter if I Iike your distrust or not, you aren't relevant any more. You're doing nothing to promote or grow the sport. If the purpose of this forum to to support only you and others with the same thoughts then of course I will leave you to your whining and bitching. But if it's a forum of discussion, welcoming a civil difference of opinion then I will hang around. ( of course I realize that civil discourse is not your strong suit - that's ok, lot of people like you around these days).
     
  30. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    To whomever is on planet Columbus....if you look in the daily pictures you will find thousands of pictures I have posted on this site alone. Did you hear I helped develop a website about trapshooting.
    The biggest bitching on the site has been you whining that the trapshooters now have a voice. And really, not too many give a care whether you stay .
    Good thing you said I can stay.
     
  31. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Columbus, What was your hobby back in the 60's and 70's when WE bitchers were shooting ATA. If you have only been shooting 7 years (64 to 71) I had quit being tournament director for the Ohio State Shoot by the time you started. I also spent 7 years as an OSTA director from the NW zone so some of us have done something. WPT and Rodger spent years at the Phoenix gun club also, and you find that most of the bitchers are shooters that have experiences like ours.

    A major problem I have seen in my 45 years of being an ATA member is that newbies, like you admit you are, get to vote and don't know anything. They last about 3 to 5 years and then move on tho the next fad leaving the ATA worse off. I bitch because of that and I really enjoy pissing off the ass holes still around that screwed up trap shooting. Brad
     
  32. Jakearoo

    Jakearoo Mega Poster

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    Columbus, Though I disagree with much of what you say, as I think this group would actually like to change trapshooting in a way to make it grow but simply feel powerless to do so, I agree with your observations about a "forum of discussion."
    Funny, many on this forum left "the other forum" because it stifles differences of opinion.
    But the tone here is often not one of "civil discourse" but one of bashing and invective. Many here simply want agreement with their point of view and certainly do not appreciate anything but "atta boys", "me toos" and "Right On!".
    Welcome to trapshooting.
    Jake
     
  33. Jim/Canton

    Jim/Canton Active Member

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    That is why Columbus showed up. To bash the forum. He presented no facts. He never does. He did not even challenge a fact presented by the OP> And he isn't bright enough to know he told one of the forum developers he has done nothing for trapshooting.
     
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  34. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Not exactly. Nearly all the original members were thrown off another site for discussions like this. Repeatedly! These facts are taboo. Pull2012 discussions would have been taboo. Discussions about the Cardinal Center were taboo.

    PULL2012 creeps are still in charge.

    I am not frustrated anymore and really don't have a horse in the race but when someone comes on the forum and tells me I have done nothing to promote trapshooting I get a bit anxious. For clueless Columbus, my other name is joe.
     
  35. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Well Brad, in the mid 60s my hobby was pheasant hunting interrupted by 23 years of military service, then a career move to "the heart of it all" and another 20+ years of career changes, raising kids, etc. Traditional muzzleloaders were my interest and still take precedence over anything else. Over time I'd picked up a Browning Recoiless, never shot it and when I retired I thought I try it out just to have something different to do. I enjoy it, it's personally challenging, but there are many things to take up recreational time and money - trap is just one of them. I'll continue to shoot and continue to peruse the two forums for information/entertainment. But isn't it odd that a simple question or observation results in personal attacks? The ATA in its current state is all the new shooter has - it didn't get the way it is under our watch. It would be interesting to have a large group of new shooters sit down and discuss, with you old-timers, what drives them away from the sport. Might find it surprising.
     
  36. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Your post was a personal attack.
    One of the latest personal attacks from Columbus was this directed towards doc.
    Waaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, it's not like it used to be; I wanna be a somebody. (All you have to do Gary, to get your fame back, is prove me wrong - shoot from your chair, shoot from your car for all I care - show us all just how good you are - but you have to shoot more than your mouth)
    docchair.jpg

    He was second at the Shriner shootoff

    No solutions from Columbus. Only complaints about the forum. Nothing new.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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  37. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Columbus, The personal attack's started long before you came along. Us OLD GUYS, at least this old guy, is sick and tired of being called negative because I won't kiss the in crowds ring.

    If you are the traditional muzzle loader you claim are you OK with today's inline smokeless powder shooting ones? How about real Black Powder versus triple 7?. I personally still have a TC Hawken 50 cal but it is cap lock, I had a flint before I started trap shooting and still have a piece of FFFF black powder in a thumb from setting off my flint with a bic lighter. So I to came to trap from being a hunter first.

    I spent my formative years around archery, my uncle went into that business after coming home from fighting the Japs in WWII. He knew and worked with Fred Bear and also made his own line of re curves back in the 60's. I bring this up because archery today looks nothing like what was then and I know the traditionalist chafe at what archery and archery hunting today has become. So I'd guess you'd have the same opinion about the so called muzzle loader of today.

    I bring this up so maybe you can see what we ATA Traditionalist's bitch about and where we are coming from. We lived it, and know, what is called Registered Trap shooting today, is an insult to the founders of the ATA and what it stood for, and if we don't bitch and speak up, you the new ATA member will be just like the new muzzle loader shooter who thinks a muzzle loader always used a shotgun primer instead of a flint. I do it for all the great shooters that I knew back when I started that have passed on that I personally knew. They have no say today so at times I'm speaking for them too. The ATA leadership when I started were honorable men who had the best interests of the members for the vast most part, I hope you get the jist of what we are trying to talk about on here.

    I also like to argue and really only call out Neil. He is the biggest Ass I ever met in the ATA and there are some duzzies. You'll never hurt my feelings so say what ever you want, my skin is thicker than Obama's head. Nothing I enjoy more than screwing with people on the internet, especially ones from the kool aid land and past know it all ATA presidents (think Neil here). I also will never shoot another ATA target and strangely can honestly say I don't miss it one bit.

    Every solution that I have offered has been rejected out of hand by the EC, What would I know? I just made a living shooting trap, selling guns off of people who thought they knew more about trap shooting than I did. No experience here.

    Brad
     
  38. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Not to digress, but inline muzzleloaders are an abomination. Never owned one, never will. I'm not even that fond of caplocks, although I do own a few.

    All you "veteran" shooters have a right to be pissed off at the organization, you watched it decline from what it was and are naturally upset. The new shooter knows nothing else and will be excited about the experience and want to continue until someone slaps him in the face and tells him he has no idea what a real trapshoot is. We only have what we can go to today. Yeah, I get it - but I too enjoy stirring the pot a bit and will play devil's advocate at times just for the hell of it. Poke the bear so to speak. Doesn't take much here to get things riled up - but let's address the root of my comments....what would you guys do, if you could, that would put the ATA in the right direction? I don't mean just get rid of the current leadership and somehow come up the money to move out of Sparta. Someone has to run the place, who, how, where? What changes would you make that would potentially benefit or grow the sport?
     
  39. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Is that the apology for saying we are the ones taking personal shots after your attack on Longshot shooting from a chair?
    Waaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, it's not like it used to be; I wanna be a somebody. (All you have to do Gary, to get your fame back, is prove me wrong - shoot from your chair, shoot from your car for all I care - show us all just how good you are - but you have to shoot more than your mouth)
    Columbus, there are 30 posts on that on this topic alone. Did you read them?
     
  40. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Yep!
     
  41. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Columbus...if you read the entire thread here then you know the OP and others have been giving solutions.
    You may want to tell the folks you not only never shot at Vandalia but never made the trip to Sparta.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  42. Jakearoo

    Jakearoo Mega Poster

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    Joe, I get it.
    And I deeply get the issues "over there." It is almost hard for me to believe what they did. There were great and often heated discussions on there about all kinds of issues trapshooting and non-trapshooting related. Now a few folks are totalitarian hall monitors for their petty and very narrow points of view. Hell, they throw you off the site for mentioning spelling or grammar. (I wonder if the spelling and grammar cops are a bit ashamed of their communication skills?)
    But don't tell me that we don't have that same kind of sanctimony in discussions on this site.
    We do and it comes with all the nice trimmings of "agree with me or I will tell you what a loser and no nothing you are and please get the hell off here." Not exactly constructive social discourse.
    But your honorable handling of the site is something else. If someone posts, it stays. And they are not policed by some petty minds who want an echo chamber. I don't think I speak for myself when I say I/we appreciate it.
    I realize that Columbus is a newby and acts like he is talking to children. And, I pointed that out to him to some extent in my response.
    But I don't think its a news flash that trapshooters can be a rather opinionated and curmudgeonly bunch, is it?
     
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  43. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Good Lord, why would I want to drive all the way to the middle of nowhere, put up with the heat, just to say I've been to Mecca (when it ain't Mecca). Of course I've never made the trip to Sparta. Thought about taking the motor home to Linn Creek someday. CC is just 30 minutes away and is enough for what I want to do. Did go to a zone shoot in Anaconda MT a couple years back - and that was like being in a solar oven. I'll stick with the home grounds thank you.
     
  44. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The ATA took the rights of the Life Members away, they were with the founders, It was guys like N1H1, who back stabbed the ATA President Neil Crusaby, Vic Reindeer's, they saw they could step by step take/steal money from the ATA using the ATA to Fund their shooting, buy/get their shells free, have their travel and Meals paid for on the MEMBERS DIME, David Bopp Pissed off the Dayton Airport Manager, and that was the big part, DHL did not expand as they said they would and went Bankrupt, They used Baffling Bull Shit to take over the ATA. We did not need to leave Vandalia in the first place, Dayton tried to move us just down the road as a last resort, There has not been any changes at the Dayton Airport that stopped The Grand American location, They wanted US to stay, show me pictures where we needed to move, YOU CAN"T, Brad was recently there and took pictures over/through the fence, it is still the same, but buildings have been torn down, Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else has been built. I bet a dollar to a nonut Dayton Wants The ATA Back, 2012PLL was was formed by an ATA PRESIDENT (PAST) He owns 2 gun clubs in Kansas as I remember. It was all done in a way by the RICH BOD, EC using the get in line to be president, get a free gun, ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEMBERSHIP, THEY MOVED THE INCORPORATION TO ANOTHER STATE, TOOK THE AUTHORITY OF LIFE MEMBERS AWAY, THEIR VOTING POWER, THEIR CONTROL UNTIL THEY TOOK THAT POWER AWAY THEY COULD NOT DO JACK SHIT, AS WE OLDER LIFE MEMBERS WOULD NOT ALLOW IT, WE THE LIFE MEMBERS OWNED THE GROUNDS, THEY COULD NOT SELL IT, IF THEY DID THE MONEY WENT TO THE LIFE MEMBERS STILL LIVING. YOU "COLUMBUS" WERE NOT A LIFE MEMBER IN THE 1960-70-80-90s, I HAVE THE ORIGINAL LIFE MEMBER CERTIFICATE BEFORE THEY WERE RE-WRITTEN, AND RE-INCORPORATED, ASK BRAD, ROGER,DAVE,DAN BONILLAS, BRITT ROBINSON, GENE SEARS, KAYE OHYE, WHAT HAPPENED. I KNOW SO MUCH AND SUCH LITTLE SPACE AND TIME TO WRITE IT ALL UP, THE ELECTED DELEGATES WERE TOLD BY THE BOD, EC YOU HAD TO BE ONE OF US, VOTE AS YOU ARE TOLD DO NOT WORK AGAINST US, YOU WORK FOR US NOW, OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WERE SMART, THEY BOUGHT AND BUILD VANDALIA, THEY DID NOT GET PAID, THEY VOLUNTEERED, THEIR TIME AND LABOR, ASK N1H1 HOW MUCH COMPENSATION HE HAS RECIEVED BY THE ATA? WE KNOPW ABOUT THE GUN, MEALS, TRAVEL EXPENSES, BOOZE TABS, ALL THE SATTELITE GRANDS THE CENTRAL HDCP COMMITTEE ATTENDED, W/ALL EXPENSES, THE EC, BOD, ARE ALL INCLUDED,ALL ZONE OFFICIALS THE LIST IS ENDLESS, THEY ALL GOT COMPENSATED, SALARIES OF TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR, LYNN GIPSON'S SALARY AND BENEFITS, LEAD RECLAMATION AT SPARTA, PART OWNER OF THE BUSINESS, i HAVE NOT SAID ENOUGH YET.

    Gary Bryant Life member 40-10126........................................Dr.longshot 55+ yrs 77+ Yrs old
     
  45. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Guess who was the Statutory Agent for 2012PLL was?

    You do the research and tell me, it is in the ATA minutes by accident.

    GB...........................DLS
     
  46. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Columbus, if you have read all the posts, then you know that many on this website have posted their suggestions on what needs to be changed in the ATA, to make it great again. You also know that I said a zone vice-president who is also a member of the Executive Committee told me there was nothing that needed fixing in the ATA and there was not a trust issue between ATA management and it's members. When ATA management asked the members for their input and then completely ignored that input, management just created a huge trust issue. But management is in denial.

    ATA management tries to blame the decline in the number of ATA shooters on the members by saying it's their fault for not picking better delegates. Hogwash, management must take the first step to reverse the decline in an organization. Management has to be willing to take a good look at themselves to determine how their decisions and attitudes contributed to the decline." This is something that ATA management has not been willing to do.

    Then N1H1spouts up and tells the members about an undocumented process for getting changes made in the ATA by corralling up enough state delegates to maybe get their suggestions voted on at the annual BOD meeting. Most of the members do not have the resources (time, money or health) to work this undocumented processes. Therefore, the members do not have a realistic way to get changes made within the ATA and ATA management likes it that way.

    Since ATA management is not willing to take the first step to reverse the decline and since ATA management is not willing to take a good look at themselves to determine how their decisions and attitudes contributed to the decline, and since there is not a realistic way for members to get changes made within the ATA there is a lot of frustration being expressed. The only recourse that members have that might change the attitude of ATA management is to stop shooting ATA targets.

    I posted yesterday that the Executive Committee and the Executive Director are way in over their heads but unwilling to admit it. They don't have a clue on how to stop the bleeding and put the ATA on the road to recovery. And the sad part is the members are not allowed to fire them.

    Columbus, I want to thank you for your service in the Armed Forces, which branch were you in?

    Garry
     
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  47. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Gary good explanation, Columbus I bought another flint lock Hawken off of E-Bay that has no bbl and I'm going to have my son put a 32 or 36 on it for squirrel hunting. When he gets time that is. Garry does a good job of explaining the ATA EC. I've been on my crusade for over 20 years, no one listened to the warnings before the moved. I knew and shot with most of those responsible for the move. That's why I can say Winston's the biggest ass of the bunch. Him and Bradford were the two main ring leaders along with the Iowa delegate back in the day. Sparta rests right on there heads and I won't let them forget it as long as any of them are sucking air away from the good folks of their states.

    A piece of advice from me to you, if you really really enjoy registered shooting stay in the dark about the inner workings of the association. The term fat, dumb, and happy works great here, the more you care and the more you learn the sicker it makes you.

    Brad
     
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  48. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    Doc,

    I had been thinking a lot about the problems of today, and as I see it, it did indeed begin when the Life Members lost their voice.

    Then after the PULL LLC debacle (ACTUAL 2012 PULL LLC) , anyone who researched this issue lost all Trust in the management of the ATA.

    I was going to mention this today but you had already mentioned it. I know there are MANY who were / are life members who feel the same way.

    Thank you for the fine remarks about this and other issues plaguing the members today.
     
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  49. shootz77

    shootz77 New Member

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    Brad, when did you become a doctor?
     
  50. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    I get it. anecdote?

    Maybe antidote is the right word. As in they need an antidote for the disease that has taken over the ata.

    "Well folks I have some bad news. We are going to have to do a radical procedure to try and save the patient. The first phase requires us to try and reverse the rectal cranial inversion that started when your loved one moved away from his support system. I'm afraid he is now living in a fantasy world where he thinks he can do whatever he wants and everything will be just fine. He keeps mumbling something about a "fantastic direction" whatever that means. We also gave him an IQ test and I'm so sorry to tell that he scored only 44. Your loved one is pretty much a booger eating moron at this point but we might be able to remedy that too.

    We will have to administer 2012 shots required to PULL him back into reality. Then, once he admits he made a TERRIBLE mistake, we can start him on the road to recovery.
    I must tell you that this isn't going to be easy. The people that led him down this road are still out there and trying their best to keep him right where he is.

    Don't worry about the cost. There are a few people that want nothing but to save the patient and have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars in that pursuit. Unfortunately they took the advice of a few QUACK doctors, and charlatans showing them all sorts of worthless charts and graphs and they believed these frauds. Hopefully, when the patient is on the road to recovery they can help again.

    I must tell you that as it stands now it looks pretty grim. If he wouldn't have drank so much Kool-Aid he might not be in this condition. SO much damage has been done that we are probably just pissing in the wind but we feel that the patient MIGHT have a chance if we can only convince him to quit drinking that damn Kool-Aid."

    How's that for an antidote/anecdote?

     
  51. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The tone I have is due to the OP going to great lengths with graphs for N1H1, charts with understandable data, a thought out thesis, and an understandable conclusion and a member says what have you done for trapshooting? But in the end without the foil there is no discussion.

    If passion for a sport is a crime then this is a guilty group.

    I have two degrees. I earned the money for the last one shooting trap. I am passionate about the sport. When "we/you guys" came to the conclusion that the average guy needed a larger voice this forum was created. It was a group effort. Columbus was not part of the group, but if he is educatable, he is a target.

    Just because we are on the forum does not mean we are not active in the sport. And ATA isn't a sport.
    old.jpg
    Above is one of those forum fuddy duddys still promoting trapshooting. Doing the scoresheets at a non registered Shriners Event.
     
  52. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Yeah, he is helping but it wasn't a REAL trap shoot. The graph master told us in one of his posts that while we would be shooting targets someplace, he would be doing REAL TRAPSHOOTING someplace else.

    Will there be a lawsuit because I said that?

    Dysinger, you were right.
     
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  53. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Did you do the research? I thought you would not.
     
  54. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Active Member Founding Member

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    Let's ask this. If "The Grand American" was still held at Vandalia and all things remained a continuation from where it left off in 2005, what would be different today in your opinion? I understand, hypothetical. Biased opinions, yes.

    The things that need to be considered is what the costs are today compared to 2005. With these same costs of today, do you think participation would be better if the grounds were still in Vandalia. Who in their right mind is willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars now days to become proficient in this sport to make what on average, couple hundred bucks, if that? Although chances may be slightly different than other sports were if you make the top .0001 percent of participants you make millions, I doubt that is what the younger generation is thinking.

    A very nice older gentleman/friend and great shooter in his day, the late Leonard Radomski once said of the ATA Grand shoots, "you used to be able to shoot a two hundred dollar gun and win ten thousand dollars, now you spend ten thousand dollars on a gun, and win two hundred dollars if your lucky".

    So, why would things be different today, if the grounds and rules were the same as back in and prior to 2005?
     
  55. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Active Member Founding Member

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    I should clarify, what would be different with "ATA" participation if things never changed from the Vandalia location in corrected, 2004? This would include across the country.
     
  56. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    yep he is a past ATA President.

    GB..................................DLS
     
  57. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Depends on Whose Graphs they are. Do you agree?


    GB.............................DLS
     
  58. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    If My Memory is correct in reading who the Statutory agent was, It listed Rob M Taylor as the Statutory agent of
    2012PLL, and it listed the Corp members, it is in I believe the ATA Minutes discussion that I read pertaining to purchase of the ATA Home Office in Sparta. Also in the Illinois Attorney General's Office Report as the owners of the property

    GB.................................DLS
     
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  59. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    It was also an interesting read on how the Property was acquired, and by whom and to whom, and when, it smelled from the get go. The Corp was formed in Kansas I believe, and it named the city of Incorporation, & also is interesting. and the date of the Incorporation, and the date of Dissolution, and whom by.

    GB.............................DLS
     
  60. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Does this suprise any of you?

    GB...................................DLS
     
  61. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    My INTELLIGENCE QUOTA IS, #144+

    I was the only Ohio applicant to perform one test @ 100% in 1957 and it has never been equalled.
    Test performed at the Ohio Dept. of Employment, I never told them How I did it. And never will.
    I used it in raising production rate from 65% to over 89% and I got a Tremendous $ bonus.

    GB...................................DLS
     
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