ATA Option #4

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum' started by dr.longshot, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    #1- Reinstitute the 1960 Rules Book
    #2-Freeze ALL ATA FUNDS & MONIES, INVESTMENTS.
    #3-Members vote on How & Where Monies are Spent
    #4-Mandatory Ydg Reductions by Shooter Avgs to 90%+ to maintain their Ydg.
    #5-Only Golden West Grand, Southern Grand,
    #6-No All American Points
    #7-No Money Punches
    #8- Minimum 44 Degree Angle, 52 yard Targets, as set by 1960 Rule Book.
    #9-Restore Life Member Rights as Originally Instituted, And Directing Operations.
    #10 - 4 year President Term, President, V-Pres.- Treasurer- Central Hdcp Cmttee, alternating Bi-Years, Election
    #11-Tournament Director Salary to be $25K w/o benefits. this includes the above positions.
    #12-Re-write the By-laws

    This is just for starters, to be refined into the Rulebook, No getting in line for President

    Gary Bryant..............................Dr.longshot
     
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  2. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    You forgot and need to add, “return ATA to Ohio.” Only then can we all have true Nirvana.
     
  3. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Return the ATA Home Grounds to Ohio as was ORIGINALLY LOCATED where it can be Properly Cared For.
     
  4. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The President is a NON paid Position, as well as Central Hdcp Cmttee. Treasurer is the only Paid Position and must have a $2.0 million Dollar Bond, paid for by the ATA. The ATA Central Office Girls are paid Position, The Office Mgr. is Paid $2,000 more.

    No Transportation fees, Hotels, Liquor Tab, Free paid meals, your expenses are like the Members shooting expenses, no free guns or Shells.

    The ATA Must Sell Trap & Field on the open market as part of Divesture, ATA is not in the Magazine Business.

    I/we need Brad & Dave + others for guidance/ The ABSOLUTE MUST is Returning the Power to Life Members as they once had.

    Gary Bryant............................Dr.longshot
     
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  5. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    In this lifetime,or the next????
     
  6. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Some help from Dan Bonillas, Ray Stafford, Britt Robinson, Frank Hoppe.& Vic Reindeers ideas,

    Incorporate all parties and a lady Transcriber/recording into a PHONE WEBINAIR at a Prearranged time & Date.

    Disclosure of results to American Trapshooter for Postings. so all know what's Happening.

    Gary Bryant..........................GARRY.......................Dr.longshot
     
  7. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I personally think WE can MAKE THIS HAPPEN in 2-5 years Max,


    GB.....GARRY..............................& American Trapshooter
     
  8. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    If you mean the GAH, then NOPE! I want it to stay right where it is.

    For as long as the ata has one nickel left in the bank they should NOT PULL OUT OF THAT PLACE IN IL.

    Raise dues, raise shooting fees, raise the rentals on camping spots, charge to get in in the HOF, hold raffles, beg for money from the Martins' again, anything to stay there to prove to all of us that won't go there that "the move" was the perfect thing to do.

    Hell, this year they might even get a few more than last years 2,003 shooters for, the BIG DAY. That'll learn us!

    If you mean the main office, I don't think that matters much.

    If you mean the HOF, then NO to that too. Keep all that stuff people donated under the maintenance care of the state of IL. The gun friendly state that I'm sure cares about a bunch of gun related artifacts and wants to protect their investment. After all, they own the building don't they?
     
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  9. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    So you support the demise of the ATA?
     
  10. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Not at all. I think the ata is going in a fantastic direction. I don't need some silly graph to show me that. Every decision made by the people that have the last word has been perfect.

    Why would you feel that all the changes the ata hierarchy have made are going to be the demise of that organization? I think everything is just fine the way it is, don't you?
     
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  11. LimaShooter50

    LimaShooter50 Active Member Founding Member

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    Great post Flyer. Oh I forgot....nickel knob44 said I am you.

    Keep PULL2012 in Illinois. Like Gipson said. He has it going in a fantastic direction

    See ya at the SCTP National Shoot at the CC next week. They aint going back to that place.
     
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  12. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The State of Illinois cannot afford to lose the 20/30 million dollars generated by the grand and the open shoot, give them a break they have to eat also ... Those folks who live in Sparta can't find their way out of town and if the ATA moves they will surely lose all of those shooters ( 3 or 4 ) that they picked up by locating to that area ... One year they had 15,000 shooters staying in the camping area on site and another 15,000 hold up in the general area, but only 2003 showed up on the Big day ... They must of been celebrating the night before ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  13. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    AZCOTRAP, Glad to see you admit that if the ATA stays in Sparta it will be their demise. It is really a slow suicide we are watching. Brad
     
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  14. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I don’t really believe that remaining in Sparta will cause the demise of the ATA. Maybe it will cause a slowdown or shrinkage of the organization, but not it’s death. When enough people get fed up, something will change. We must have a National body representing orgainized registered shooting.
     
  15. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The State of Illinois will be the demise of the ATA once they pull the plug on the WSRC and the ATA does not have an alternate plan ready to be implemented on a short notice ... The ATA has a Signature Sponsor (Bill and Lee Ann Martin) and a few associate sponsors that are the bread and butter of the ATA in Illinois, without them the grand is toast ... The State of Illinois cannot and will not invest any money in the facility or any of the State Parks because they do not have it and cannot afford to ... The State closed the facility before (without notice) and it is not beyond them to do it again only on a permanent basis ... ( Google Meigs Field, it was a GOLD mine for Chicago and they bull dozed it with out notice ) ... Location, location, location, if all else fails think Location ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

    Prettiest sight I can remember seeing in my rear view mirror was Illinois when I was leaving ...
     
  16. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Earth to AZCO
    Something changed. We now have the same number shooters in the GAH as during the Korean War. 2/3 of the registered shooters......gone. Keep the course. Keep target claimer Pipe Layer. Stay in Chicago.
     
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  17. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Smithy,

    So do you think Dr. Longshot is a space cadet too? You are posting on his thread, the subject matter of which is to bring back the ATA. Perhaps you displeasure is just for those outsiders like myself, not part of your incrowd? Are you really that shallow?
     
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  18. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Ya seem to forget Smithy, the ATA did not leave Vandalia. Vandalia kicked the ATA out of Vandalia. The fact the ATA ended up in Illinois is besides the point. The point is your beloved State of OHIO did not nothing to to keep the ATA in Ohio. So I will not apoligize for any minor efforts on my part or major efforts on anybody else’s if we want to save the ATA, someway, somehow. You can kiss my ........ if you don’t like it.
     
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  19. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    That is NOT TRUE ..... Vandalia loved the influx of millions of dollars per year ..... It is true that they lost the lease on the west end of what they were using as a temporary expansion .....

    After the security fence was in place, the property the ATA OWNED could still be used the same as any time prior .....

    The dunderheads running the ATA created miserable enough conditions to get the shooters to easily agree to some type of move .....

    They sold camping spots in the parking lots to the point where there was NOT ANY PARKING for cars ..... There was not any electric, or anything else for these spots, so portable generators ran 24/7, and were close enough to the shooting line and loud enough to bother the best of shooters ..... They started allowing Golf Cars on the shooting side of the very old hand-rail by the very old sidewalk, so gun racks and back fence shooters were always in harms way from a kid going as fast as they could make the thing go .....

    So ..... the LIE that Vandalia had something to do with the ATA moving, was started by the ATA leadership that had personal gain in mind from the move .....
     
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  20. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    So the story is no longer true that the airport wanted the land? This newest story is the first time I have heard this. Seems to change every time it is told. Maybe in a couple decades we will learn the truth.
     
  21. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    There was an interest in one of the common carriers building a "hub" on the land if/when it was purchased ..... But, the idea that Vandaila "kicked out the ATA" is false ...... Also the idea that the property the ATA owned was no longer usable to shoot on is false .....
     
  22. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    THERE YA GO!

    The old, I really don't have an answer, I just stepped in it, I shouldn't have said anything at all, response.

    You can kiss my ……………

    As I said before. What's to save? EVERYTHING is going in a FANTASTIC direction. You and all your buds can shoot at that place in IL. for the next 30-50 years. More power to ya. Have fun, go every year, hell, go twice a year. That way the ata can say there are 60,000 people going there.
     
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  23. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    OH, I see, you want the truth from the ata?

    Now that's funny, I don't care what anybody says
     
  24. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    AZCO....you can search the site. Suggest searching HB's post on the subject.
     
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  25. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Family guy,

    I will do that. Have missed much in my self imposed exile here. Guess I don’t know what is what.


    Dr. Longshot,

    I get the feeling you are very much alone here in your quest to return the ATA to it’s glory. Maybe I/N1H1 are not the evil being(s) you think I/we are. I have learned my lesson, there is no interest here in saving ATA.
     
  26. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator

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    I suggest you not speak for the tens of thousands of readers that drop by.
     
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  27. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Hey, just reflecting on what a moderator of this forum is telling me. What should I believe when straight from the keyboard of a moderator? You guys are confusing as hell. Want to remove my privileges for a while to punish me?
     
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  28. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Nice try, I asked you WHY YOU thought the ata needed saving.

    As far as you being "punished". I wouldn't do it even when you implied that someone could kiss your...…. posterior.

    And I definitely wouldn't punish you for being confused.
     
  29. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator

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    Punishment? I was just trying to prevent you from looking like you. Have at. Represent any group you want. It only makes you look like you. No harm to me or the forum.
     
  30. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Would the Grand be "Grander" if we had full participation from shooters in PA and OH who choose to stay away? I hope this animosity could go away and we start focusing on how to make the ATA better. Categories such as Junior Gold, Sub Vet and Lady II are a waste of time. Let's get our delegate to voice opinions against such things. Target requirements for the All American team is another backwards crap.

    Wishing for the ATA demise is not going to be successful...just look at the ATA financial statement any you will know the organization is strong.

    Happy Independence Day!!
     
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  31. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    Was there not some man in Ohio whose name began with a "W" who offered to help the ATA out when all this Vandalia business began ?

    For fear of getting the name wrong I am not spelling it out.

    Seems as if I remember somewhere that the ATA wigs didn't take the offer to stay in Ohio.

    PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.
     
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  32. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike J.
    I'm not sure anyone is wishing for the demise of the ATA if not liking the way things get done and the favors some people are afforded when that was not the way it was developed by design ...There are many that take advantage of the members via their position within the ATA and that my friend is what piss's people off ... There was a time when the EC and Bod were held in high esteem, now many or most are not respected to a higher degree of a piss ant ... They do virtually nothing yet are well provided for with membership money ... Personally, I would not piss on one of them if they were on fire in the middle of the desert and I was the only source of water for 100 miles ... I have been a Life Member since 1975 and seen witnessed many changes over the years, most did not benefit the membership but sure as hell benefitted the Good Ol' Boys club ...The only way to fix it is to DRAIN the SWAMP and get rid of the TRASH, start over with men of Integrity and not the bunch of bottom feeders that are in there now ...
    This has nothing to do with Ohio, Illinois or any place else for that matter ... The ATA turned their back on the shooters and the shooters are making them pay ... PAYBACKS are the Bitch ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  33. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I have announced I no longer have a dog in the fight. I gave up but when someone posts a statement of idiocy I will comment:

    The ATA sent a letter and poll to shooters. The answers were clear.
    1 Don't go to a gun hate state.
    2. The shooters OH and PA (most of the shooters) were not going to travel that far.

    The ATA published literature saying they did not care. They could do it without them.
     
  34. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    To continue to Mike, whom seems to know nothing about the economic facts.

    OH and PA have 5 of the 6 largest shoots in their backyard. Why the hell would anyone with a bone of sense think they would ignore the better venues for Illinois? Only Mike and the PULL2012 Executive Committee would hope for that.

    It is also unfortunate that Mike does not know 2 other things. Most of the PA and OH shooters were weekend warriors. Ohio shooters vary between 4th and 6th in attendance.

    Mike.....If you want to complain about a lack of attendance and apathy look in the back yards of Missouri and Illinois. Especially Illinois.
     
  35. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    Again ..... What ALWAYS gets lost in this "save the ATA" garbage is .....

    It IS NOT the WHERE as MUCH AS THE WHAT ..... The "grand" could be held on the dark side of the moon under lights and still SUCK ..... Moving it AGAIN would not fix the broken handicap and class system, making a perfect score plus more a requirement from ANY YARDAGE or in ANY CLASS to win a plastic duck .....

    And, how are you going to get THE VERY SAME PEOPLE who made the mess clean it up ?????????????

    Make it a TRUE competition with something worth the time and effort, and I would be willing to donate my lunch money in Sparta, to someone who beat me on a equal level .....

    So, enough of the where ..... and ALWAYS REMEMBER the WHAT is WHAT draws the shooters, even in BFE .....
     
  36. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I agree with wpt that being critical of some of the ATA's decisions is not wishing for the demise of our governing body. The issues you mentioned above Mike J might be looked at as you being a "hater" or "basher" but most of us here know you are just offering your opinion about ATA decisions you don't believe were beneficial or in the best interests of the organization.

    After years of debate with a good trapshooting friend, he finally made me understand that we as members have no say and therefore cannot effect change.

    We all have seen good conscientious Delegates we thought would do a great job overseeing the ATA. Some just fell into the fold in order to seek higher office. Others maintained their conscientious character but were on the losing side of voting on issues that most felt were not in the best interest of the ATA.

    Many of us believe the decisions affecting higher scores were not in the best interests of the sport. That they had more negative affect than positive. Many of us felt the two 2-yard reductions in handicap assignments were not in the best interests of the sport. Some State and Provincial Delegates warned the Executive Committee members, but of course, the E. C., knowing they were so much smarter than Delegates, went ahead and initiated their decision. Well, if memory serve me, Delegates understood the impact and voted down a second proposed 2-yard reduction at the annual meeting, but the E. C. in their subsequent meeting decided to do it anyway. Delegates remained silent instead of reversing this improper act by the E. C.

    Additionally, when ATA leadership closed a blind eye after learning about 2012 PULL LLC and it's owner's likely conflict of interest, I as a life member, lost all faith in our leadership. I expect better of them. I expect the highest level of integrity to be exhibited at all times by each Executive Committee member. They have not lived up to my expectations and I for one am disappointed. I believe there are many others who are disappointed.

    One of the most important clauses in our Rule Book reminds us that the selection of State and Provincial Delegates, including Alternates, should be given the utmost consideration. It is their duty to oversee the operation of the ATA so the success or failure of our association rests at their feet.

    In closing, I'll note the ATA financial statement is a measure of strength and success. However, in my view the organization's foundation (and true strength & success) is its membership which includes associated shooting clubs, both of which have been in) the decline for years. More attention should be placed on these two groups before the foundation crumbles.

    HB
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  37. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    wpt - I don't disagree that the Ol' Boys club at the ATA needs fixing. That's where we should concentrate our efforts to make sure that state delegates who represent our interest listen to our concerns.
     
  38. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    No. 2 - Go cry on some one else's shoulders. I travel twice the distance as people from OH to get to the Grand and I do. If we were to consider the politics of state officials there will not be shooting in many states. NY is one of the most gun hating state but we still do well because we put up a fight in our legislature.

    The fact is you guys keep crying about attendance at the Grand but you boycott the shoot. Go figure!! I am post Ohio as far as relocation is concerned so I have no beef in this but you guys need to get over it for the good of the sport.
     
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  39. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    I view this point in the reverse .....

    The ownership of land, buildings, and infrastructure have a solid lasting "value/strength/success" ...... investments and depreciating property are always at risk of becoming worthless .....

    So, I view turning land, buildings, and infrastructure into investments and depreciating property, more than foolish for the future interests of those who are young and will be lasting members .....
     
  40. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    I mean no disrespect to OH shooters, but look at the scores at the CC. They are through the roof for the equivalent amount of shooters. It is the place to be to complete your GS. Even RJ site boast about the number of 100s from the 27 yds at the CC. What gives? If you want more difficult targets shouldn't we fix our own system first?

    Fire away. This is a good day for it.
     
  41. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    "What gives" ..... is "Ohio" is just like every other place now ..... segregated ..... it has the occupy the 27 and point chasers like everywhere else ..... and there are some "in charge" at the CC who feel the need to cater to them .....

    The "faces" were the same at ALL Ohio Shoots, now there are larger segregated groups seeking different levels of competition ..... what makes it "stand out" is, both groups are larger being segregated than ALL shooters in other areas .....
     
  42. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike J.
    I would appreciate you answering a few questions to the best of your ability with no intention of personal attacks on your character ...

    Had you ever shot the Grand in Vandalia, Ohio ...? (The Grand when it was GRAND...)

    What do you perceive as being the problems within the ATA, State organizations and or for good measure this site ..?

    How long have you been a Member of the ATA ..? (Life or annual does not make any difference, MEMBER) ...

    What changes have you personally seen and who got the greatest benefit of them ..?

    There are people (?) who made changes against the wishes of the membership, they get put in the States HOF ...

    Do you really understand why there are so many shooters ( members ) who will not make the trek to shoot the grand ..?

    The people who openly speak their mind on this site have probably been banned or suspended for having an opinion that does not match others, think retaliation for having your own opinion and voicing them ... I am special I had "Double Secret Probation" prior to being banned, probably to be used as an example and I never looked back ...
    We do not support the grand not because of where it is, but how it got there ... There were several options available to the ATA but probably did not include certain kick backs to certain individuals ... The WSRC and Sparta was removed from consideration at one point only to come back as the front runner shortly there after ... The facility did not and could not pass due diligence that the ATA paid a lot of money to establish from a Professional firm that does that, and the next thing you know It's SPARTA and those that do not like it can go screw themselves ... There is far more to this than you obviously have knowledge of ... Ask questions, these people are your friends and if they do not know they will find out and get back to you ... If you had ever been to the Grand when it was the Grand you would know that the shoot in Illinois isn't ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  43. oldskt94

    oldskt94 Active Member Founding Member

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    If we are going to eliminate satellite grand, do all. A great start to change, would get term limits for all directors.
     
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  44. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The name "Grand" has been whored out beyond ones comprehension of what the Grand was and what it is today ... The name alone is supposed to signify what it is and now what it isn't ... Steve in Las Vegas used to have the Las Vegas Fall Handicap (NOTE: no grand ) at his club and the place was packed, would make the facility in Illinois look like a pimple on a real grands azz ... Steve knew exactly how to and why to host shoots giving his customers exactly what they wanted and deserved beyond a doubt and it was always a good time ... I shot with some Top Guns at his club and never felt like there was any advantages given to anyone when it came to squads ... There were also no refunds, once your in, your in again no favorites ... Clark County got the best end of that deal when they hired him ... Satellite Grand is one thing but to have one every week someplace only cheapens what it once was and was mean't to be ... Originality is in order, get the hell off of the Grand BS, there was one at one time in Ohio and it ain't no more except in name only ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  45. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Silly Mike.....only you are whining Ohio shooters and PA shooters don't go to your state or venue choice. I don't have to go to the gun hate state. I don't need to go to the gun hate state. I have too many shoots locally. We told the EC that. They understood.

    I guess you did not get the memo. Sparta, Illinois is a venue. It is a terrible venue. I have been there. It just plain sucks.

    Good luck.
     
  46. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    We will bring the planes in and then you will like it LOL.
     
  47. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Wpt, My answers are in blue.


    Had you ever shot the Grand in Vandalia, Ohio ...? (The Grand when it was GRAND...)

    No. I shot the Grand in Sparta and loved it. The GRAND is where the top shooters in the ATA and others shoot and that happens ONLY in Sparta TODAY. Which TOP shooter today boycott Sparta? Name them so we can check their averages and where they shoot.

    What do you perceive as being the problems within the ATA, State organizations and or for good measure this site ..?

    I agree that the EC does not pay attention to shooters. We have to try to change that through talking to and picking our delegates. Let’s tell the Ol Boys EC that certain current things need to change. This site is a great avenue to do that. However, this site is too anti Sparta which hurts the sport I think.


    How long have you been a Member of the ATA ..? (Life or annual does not make any difference, MEMBER) ...

    10 plus years. I am currently a Life Member because I don’t need the hassle of paying every year.


    What changes have you personally seen and who got the greatest benefit of them ..?

    I think there have been some good changes at New York ATA running the shoots that benefitted all shooters. They listened to the shooters frustration and got rid of the “lottery” bank system which confused most new shooters and held thing up.

    The ATA executive is the Ol Boys system so that will not change until we get better delegates in or a new president who will shake things up. I heard lots of people have respect for Paul Shaw so he could be our best hope when he comes in.

    There are people (?) who made changes against the wishes of the membership, they get put in the States HOF ...

    I do not disagree with this because that’s how the Ol Boys club is run. This needs to change.

    Do you really understand why there are so many shooters ( members ) who will not make the trek to shoot the grand ..?

    This I do not understand other than they hate Sparta. I drive 17 hours to get to Sparta so I am not about to listen to anyone who lives closer and complain about distance.


    The people who openly speak their mind on this site have probably been banned or suspended for having an opinion that does not match others, think retaliation for having your own opinion and voicing them ... I am special I had "Double Secret Probation" prior to being banned, probably to be used as an example and I never looked back ...

    Banned from the ATA or the Kool Aid Site? I got banned for life from the Kool Aid Site for speaking out against the EC. I told George from MT to go f… himself.


    We do not support the grand not because of where it is, but how it got there ... There were several options available to the ATA but probably did not include certain kick backs to certain individuals ... The WSRC and Sparta was removed from consideration at one point only to come back as the front runner shortly there after ... The facility did not and could not pass due diligence that the ATA paid a lot of money to establish from a Professional firm that does that, and the next thing you know It's SPARTA and those that do not like it can go screw themselves ... There is far more to this than you obviously have knowledge of ...

    I don’t know the history of the move but I think it is time to move on for the good of the sport.
     
  48. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    [QUOTE="Mike J, post: 47699, member: 2614"] We will bring the planes in and then you will like it LOL.[/QUOTE]

    That's one!

    Since you said WE will bring in the planes I assume you have some PULL with the ata so what are you going to do about getting the low number, 2,003, of GAH shooters back to where it was?

    If you get FG you only need another 1,199+.
     
  49. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    FG counts for 4 LOL!! I am working on getting all you guys to shoot there then the numbers will be up and the EC will have more to spend on themselves :)
     
  50. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    "No. I shot the Grand in Sparta and loved it. The GRAND is where the top shooters in the ATA and others shoot and that happens ONLY in Sparta TODAY. Which TOP shooter today boycott Sparta? Name them so we can check their averages and where they shoot."

    I didn't know the "grand" was only for "top shooters" I thought it was for anyone that wanted to go. Last year, 2,003, the year before even less. Apparently more than 2,000 don't want to be bothered.

    Since you never shot at Vandalia, FYI the GAH event would be twice what that place in IL. draws.
     
  51. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    Go back and read my post that is number 35 ..... I have been there twice ..... can't say I enjoyed shooting average scores for nothing was worth the trip .....
     
  52. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    I said ...top shooters in the ATA and others shoot. If we can the boycotters to shoot attendance will improve. But times have changed, attendance at even Vandalia might have fallen who know it could have been lower because of the planes.
     
  53. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Average scores on soft targets? What if the angles were wider?
     
  54. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    It really shouldn't matter how many of "us guys" you get. The EC said the grand didn't need "us guys".

    ALL THOSE SHOOTERS THAT COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T GO TO VANDALIA WOULD FLOCK TO that place in IL. and make up for any difference in attendance.

    How's that working out for them?
     
  55. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    If you are that full of yourself I will make you the same offer I made ol'N1H1 ..... A side bet worth the time may motivate me to make the trip ..... You can be an ass and assume my average is below yours, then put some money on your theory .....
     
  56. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Here is the GAH attendance since 2000. Note the low number the last year at Vandalia. What happened? I would think that would have been the largest attendance to prove a point.


    upload_2018-7-4_17-25-41.png
     
  57. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Well I don't know your name else I might be willing to bet. You might just send someone who can shoot in your place, so no thanks.
     
  58. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    Why should my name matter ..... it didn't stop you from acting like an ass ..... my money is cash, and I could care less what your name is to make the offer .....
     
  59. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Just want the right person to show up. PM me your name and I might take you up on your bet at the Grand....seriously.
     
  60. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    My name is the easy part ..... what is the worthwhile offer ?????
     
  61. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike J,
    The ATA put a limit on the number of shooters so fewer shooters showed up thinking they would not be able to get a spot ... This was all of the Genius's putting their heads together rather than sit back and deal with it if it happens ... I will respond to your answers later got things to do right now ... Appreciate you taking the time to answer them ... Those that do not, will not go so don't bother wasting your time ... If by chance I did go to Sparta, I would not even bring a gun ... I was there (in Sparta, Ill, a Buddy's family is from there ) long before anyone came up with the idea to down size the grand by moving it to Illinois ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  62. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike....you should read the forum before posting. You would know the answer and not look so "silly" again.

    The last year at Vandalia was heavily boycotted by PA and OH shooters. The announcement that the EC was going to ignore the polls and research / marketing company they hired enraged many.

    It proves you are very ignorant of the history of the move and the corruption behind it. Again, good luck in Illinois. Been there. Done that.
     
  63. Mike J

    Mike J Mega Poster

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    Per the stats it seems like 500 boycotted the last shoot in Vandalia, if you are correct.
    That's not a huge amount. Am I sounding more smart now? I am working at it to be as smart as you.
     
  64. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Bigger stat is the shoot in Sparta is now as small as the grand was during the Korean War. I am sorry you need folks from OH and PA to make up for the apathy in IL and the fact that it is just not a desirable place to shoot. Again, I gave up on helping the ATA. I don't have much of a care.

    I hope you can find peace with the shoot's lack of success. Maybe you can take out an ad in a Chicago paper. Maybe it will improve. I will be at the CC taking pictures of the SCTP National Shoot. It used to be in Sparta.

    Best of luck.
     
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  65. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Mike J.
    Most of the people on this site truly go along with your way of thinking, to a point ... Now, Imagine this if you will, you are in a car and want to go but the car will not go no matter what you do ... This car is typically the ED, EC and many on the BOD, they are happy in the place that provides for them and they can care less about the membership ... The people who made the choice to not support the grand/ Illinois still support the ATA by shooting any registered targets at all with daily fee's etc ... The number do not lie and the claims of fantastic direction, generating 20/30 million dollars in and around the general area, 15,000 shooters on site, and another 15,000 in the local area area are all plain and unadulterated bull chit ... The ATA blames the shooters when it fact its the ATA's fault, not the shooters at all because many of them are still shooting, but not shooting in a way to benefit the Association ... The ATA can exist on the daily fees so its not going any place ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  66. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    NO Ohio Tried to keep the ATA here where the Strip Land owner was donating the land and flew in by Helicopter to show the grounds near McConnellsville, Ohio and OUR ATA President would not get out of his car to meet them, He is DEAD now, he disgraced the ATA, Vandalia and Ohio, you all know him, I forgot him already, He was N1H1's good ole buddy, and ASS licker no pardon here, it is the truth, Then the DEAL that Lex Wexner offered on land for a 100 year lease, all flat land, traps to the north, the ATA refused him, then came back and LEX WEXNER said you refused me once, no second chance. Some big money changed hands on the Sparta Deal, You Ain't Foolin Me on that. And it also was strip mine land.

    No member ( LIFE MEMBER) shall haveany right, title, or interest whatsoever in or to any of the property or assets which the Corporation may have or hereinafter acquire except hereinafter acquire except hereinabove provided for in the dissolution and winding up of this corporation. WHICH WAS ALREADY OWNED BY THE LIFEMEMBERS THAT THIS EC & BOD STOLE, by actions in 1955 et al.

    Gary Bryant................................Dr.longshot
     
  67. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Being as the incident that happened in 1955 was over 20 years before I took up trap and I was not even 10, of what importance is the 1955 incident important now? What importance will it have 100 years from now? If something was to be done, it should have been done in 1955. Ancient history, spilled milk, get over it.

    As,to the offering grounds in Ohio and refused by the ATA, how many witnesses saw this incident, how many people can testify it happened? It all sounds very conspired, but what evidence could be offered in court if this were a crime related matter? Is there a way to prove this incident actually happened or is it all an urban myth layered with years of exaggeration? How do we find out what happened as told, actually happened?

    For those who say they no longer care about the ATA or it’s future, why do you make the point to telling us that, everyday?
     
  68. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    AZCO....these guys must think they need to re-tell the history. One of the forum clowns ignorant of the past wrote>>>
    You can educate yourself reading previous threads or just continue to ask. This stuff only gets repeated when someone like you comes around. There is the other opportunity to go to the worn out 7 1/2's or eights place. Or read and learn.
    I really don't have a dog in the fight. I am just giving you the facts like many here. Good luck to you and the ATA. I am not trying to change it. I take thousands of trapshooting pictures and post them.
     
  69. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Familyguy,

    What facts?

    When I do a search and read past threads, it is still unsubstantiated claims, no evidence to support anything.

    I think you guys have repeated this stuff so often within your own little circle you believe it all, hook line and sinker and would not know what is fact or truth it it smacked you up across the side of the head.

    For a site that claims it has no hatred for the ATA or cares not about it’s future, it all you guys yammer about day in, day out.
    If you have “no dog in the fight” why do you constantly post to accuse skeptics like myself and defend the people who parrot this stuff? “I only take pictures,” yeah right. You would make me a believer if you were not the number one denier. You are always first in line to come down with both feet against anyone who does not drink your Koolaid.

    Did you not see DLS’ thread above mine?

    I cannot believe people will spend the rest of their lives in this self created purgatory.
     
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  70. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Hey I have an idea.

    How about anytime one of these threads are created, either wanting to return to a time before many were born or bitching about something in ATA history that we cannot go back to, I report it and the mods move it to the History section of this website. By so doing the rest of us can discuss guns, shells, shoots, acquiring new shooters, other topics that help a person pickup their average from a D to a C, a C to a B, a B to an A. We really will make this a forum about trapshooting?

    Whata say????
     
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  71. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    You have 458 posts. And you are a founding member. Been here since '2015. One of the first and one of the biggest posters. AND YOU DONT EVEN SUPPORT YOUR OWN STATE SHOOT. TOO FAR HUH? Tell us that crap again. What was that other knobs name? Same person?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2018
  72. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator

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    I also have an idea. How about avoiding threads you do not like? No one here is responsible for keeping track of your place or date of birth. You are welcome to start threads and topics on your own. Not capable? Do you need a separate forum for 7 1/2's or 8's? You may be viewed as a leader rather than just another lazy poster that is here to complain about a thread.

    Thanks for posting so often.
     
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  73. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    You win ..... that has to be the dumbest post so far for 2018 .....

    "Hey I have an idea", also ..... you pick something that has your panties in a twist, and when someone can provide "evidence" to support it, you donate 100 bucks each time to support the site .....

    How about that for an idea ???? A win-win, you get the "evidence" you seem to have missed, the site gets money to provide it for you ..... again .....

    If no "evidence" can be provided, you can keep on posting " it is still unsubstantiated claims, no evidence to support anything" .....
     
  74. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    A old pastor told me to always remember, that the absence of proof is not proof of absence.
     
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  75. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Smithy,

    You still are wrong. I have been to 3 Colorado State Shoots and 3 Arizona State shoots in the last 5 years. I don’t go to every shoot, every year. How is that important if I don’t? You don’t even shoot ATA do you? You need to trying something new.

    Just joe,

    Hey look. If you have no interest in making this web site more interesting, so be it, it yours! I am just trying to offer a way to get more people interested in posting meaningful information about trapshooting other than the 24/7 bitching about ATA which few of you even belong. It’s not my fault you only get one or two posts a week on Trapshooting, it is not me running other posters off with this anti ATA crap.

    User1, and Garry,

    Same goes for you. The theme is boring, it does nothing to promote trapshooting, if you and a few others want to die miserable to the end over something you had no control over, fine by me. Keep up the tales, few believe it, it does not matter now anyway. If there was a crime committed other than poor judgement or unethical behavior, you have not exposed it to anyone.
     
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  76. Just Joe

    Just Joe Administrator

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    Last warning. If you don't like the threads....create another. Create it. You may be limited to your ability to do so. You decide. We will not be erasing threads, hiding, or moving topics for you.

    As Trump said. I have a button. And mine works.
     
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  77. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    You really are stupid ..... sometimes ol'N1H1 likes to act stupid to get a reaction ..... but, you are just the real kind of stupid that is not fake .....

    Even at this level ....."other than poor judgement or unethical behavior" ..... that should be enough to piss-off any honest members ..... but, in the ATA world it just earns you higher pay .....

    Just because you may be "unethical" and/or have "poor judgement", and accept the same behavior from those destroying the ATA ..... do not expect everyone to join you and those you covet .....
     
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  78. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Founding Member

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    Sometimes I think I quit shooting ATA ten years later than I should have. No targets since 2011, I won't let my daily fee be the one that breaks the ATA even. Brad
     
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  79. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Okay Joe, I got it. This is not an open forum where viewpoints and ideas can be exchanged. Previldged people can demean the ATA, but others cannot defend it. Understood, loud and clear.

    User1, SCREW YOU!
     
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  80. User 1

    User 1 Moderator Founding Member

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    That's funny ..... and goes to show my calling you stupid was not a personal attack ..... just an honest observation .....
     
  81. Northern Illinois Pride

    Northern Illinois Pride Member

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    Does Ohio have free land ready to go with the Trap Houses (not Machines) to be given freely as well? That's great you all have it figured out!! If Ohio has a spot for 3.5 miles of traps free with trap houses. and state provided maintenance, sporting clays, cowboy action, rifle ranges, then by all means we should have move it to Ohio. Otherwise it stays in Illinois..
     
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  82. N1H1

    N1H1 Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doctor Longshot, you will get a chance to test some of that at the Championship Series Event 1 organized by this website and taking place in about two weeks. I look forward to its success with one-ounce loads, but it really should be at the 27, not the 25.

    N1H1
     
  83. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    The only thing that has anything to do with "going back" is you going back and reading my post from 7/2/18.

    I never said the grand should move back to Ohio. Please show me where I said anything even remotely close to that. Just the opposite. I said I hoped it stayed right where it was. FOREVER!

    Hell, I'll save you the trouble. This is what I posted back then when someone implied that I wanted the grand to move back to OH.


    "If you mean the GAH, then NOPE! I want it to stay right where it is.

    For as long as the ata has one nickel left in the bank they should NOT PULL OUT OF THAT PLACE IN IL.

    Raise dues, raise shooting fees, raise the rentals on camping spots, charge to get in in the HOF, hold raffles, beg for money from the Martins' again, anything to stay there to prove to all of us that won't go there that "the move" was the perfect thing to do.

    Hell, this year they might even get a few more than last years 2,003 shooters for, the BIG DAY. That'll learn us!"

    And low and behold, they DID get more shooters.That is a perfect reason to keep the grand in that place in IL.

    Someone with a Walmart calculator has to help me out here. What was the percentage increase for the GAH event #24 over last years 2,003 "entries"?

    You might need a chart or graph to show it.
     
  84. N1H1

    N1H1 Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doctor Longshot, you will get a chance to test some your demands at the "Championship Series" Event 1 organized by this website and taking place in about two weeks. I look forward to its success with one-ounce loads, but it really would have to be from the 27, not the 25, to answer the questions I have.

    As you demand, I suppose there will be a vote "How & Where Monies are Spent." Things like All-American points may be in flux pending the "series" being filled out across the country, I suppose, as is the 1960 rule book which does not require one-ounce loads. I see that the angles will take care of themselves, but 25 large seems a lot for a single couple of days running a shoot. But it's not my money and you can spend it as you see fit, of course, and don't have to listen to me.

    At the very least, this will be a good test of the ability of those on this site to found and operate the all-new Trapshooting Association then have been promising us for years. This will be the very first step and really, really, cross my heart, hope it he Association's By-laws and rules are laid out exactly as you demand, Dr. Longshot. . In a couple of weeks we will find out how well they can organize a single shoot, and make informal projections on the future of them creating a popular, long-lived, and profitable national organization based on how they carry this off.

    N1H1
     
  85. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Ohio don't want it, they have the Cardinal Center and their own Hall of Fame so why on God's green earth would they consider letting the grand move back there ..? Illinois is the perfect place for the Mini grand except they have to worry about getting rid the smell and rid of the bed bugs when they leave … Somebody besides the State of Illinois is paying the bills because the IDNR didn't get $100 K in fees for the entire shooting match @$3.00 per entry (closer to $70,000) … WPT … (YAC) …
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  86. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I think it is time to tell azco the longer he talks the dumber he sounds. He wants to stir up the chit, but is to lazy to research the subjects. I think it is time to hit the ignore button. Roger C.
     
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  87. oldskt94

    oldskt94 Active Member Founding Member

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    N1H1 stated that there will be New championship series soon. I have been out of internet range recently, did I miss something or is the new series by invitation only
     
  88. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    oldskt94,
    If and when it gets here you can rest assured non of the existing EC or BOD members will have any say in the management of the organization. The series is moving forward. Roger C.
     
  89. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    There is nothing free, someone sooner or later is going to pay ... The ATA does not, never has, never will need 3 1/2 miles of trap line, that was part of the monument to those who were involved for them self ... The machines got bought with moneys that were taken from shooters on a per entry basis claiming to be for relocation to the new ATA Home Grounds, not being renters operational at the will of the State of Illinois ... Before you claim all of the scheduled events that you have pointed out, you best look at the schedule and count up the days the facility actually gets used then figure out how much they are going to have as estimated income once all is said and done ... Blow Smoke, but keep it in Illinois will you please ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  90. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The ATA would be better off renting their traps, not all of them , just the GAH, then they could Rent Pro=Matics for good targets.

    GB...........................DLS
     
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